Does Paul believe that every single Jew will eventually be saved, both past, future (from his perspective) and present?
26 And in this way all Israel will be saved, as it is written, "The Deliverer will come from Zion, he will banish ungodliness from Jacob"; (Rom 11:26 ESV)
Partial Universalism?
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Re: Partial Universalism?
Post #2liamconnor wrote: Does Paul believe that every single Jew will eventually be saved, both past, future (from his perspective) and present?
26 And in this way all Israel will be saved, as it is written, "The Deliverer will come from Zion, he will banish ungodliness from Jacob"; (Rom 11:26 ESV)
His words would indicate that he believes all of Israel would be saved, yes (all of Israel would include Jews, but certainly encompasses more than just the Jews. Jews descend from the two tribe Kingdom of Judah - Judah and Benjamin, of which Paul descended from Benjamin. But there are ten other tribes - that though they may be 'lost' to man, they would not be lost to God). Past, present, and future (from his perspective).
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Re: Partial Universalism?
Post #3liamconnor wrote: Does Paul believe that every single Jew will eventually be saved, both past, future (from his perspective) and present?
"And in this way all Israel will be saved, as it is written, "The Deliverer will come from Zion, he will banish ungodliness from Jacob"; (Rom 11:26 ESV)
Paul is here speaking of "spiritual" Israel*. As a body or a group "all Israel" will indeed be saved. He is not however speaking of individual Jews** (whether spiritual or physical desendants of Abraham) whose future will be dependent on their continued obedience.
Paul said "all Israel" (all America), so just as the President will not leave one or two states (ie a part of "America" undefended) God will ensure that no section of His (spiritual) nation is destroyed. This is not to be confused with "each invidivdual Israelite" (each individual Amerian citizen) who may or may not perish depending on their individual circumstance.To illustrate: Imagine that America goes to war against an invador. The President assures his citizens that "All America will be defended" Does that mean no individual soldiers will die in the combat? Is there a difference between "America" (the 50 States) , "Americans" the totality of the people as a group, and "each individual American citizen"?
JW
* "spiritual Israel" refers to the entire body of spirit anointed christians, ie Christian chosen by God to live in heaven after they die and rule with Jesus in his government.
**"Israel" is the nation, "Israelites" refers to the members of that nation as a group; "each/every Israelite" refers to individuals or all individuals respectively, belonging to that group.
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Re: Partial Universalism?
Post #4[Replying to post 3 by JehovahsWitness]
Paul does make a distinction between spiritual and ethnic Israel.
I say then, God has not rejected His people, has He? May it never be! For I too am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. (Rom 11:1 NAS)
Here he points out that the elect still includes Jews, as Paul himself is a Jew.
God has not rejected His people whom He foreknew. Or do you not know what the Scripture says in the passage about Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel? (Rom 11:2 NAS)
Here I see Paul looking for a parallel in scripture to his own situation: only a chosen remnant belong to the church (i.e. the new Israel made of Gentile and Jew); just as Elijah was a minority of Jews dedicated to YHWH in a pagan Israel.
In the same way then, there has also come to be at the present time a remnant according to God's gracious choice. (Rom 11:5 NAS)
Thus, Paul and the small number of Jews are a remnant. But already, a Jew reading this would think of the larger O.T. picture in which the remnant were to be a blessing (i.e., a positive influence) upon corporate Israel. They were a remnant for Israel; not apart from Israel.
7 What then? Israel failed to obtain what it was seeking. The elect obtained it, but the rest were hardened,
8 as it is written, "God gave them a spirit of stupor, eyes that would not see and ears that would not hear, down to this very day." (Rom 11:7-8 ESV)
Here Paul says that this was not unknown to God; it has precedence in Israel's history, as Paul points out in his references.
But the turning point comes here:
11 So I ask, did they stumble in order that they might fall? By no means! Rather through their trespass salvation has come to the Gentiles, so as to make Israel jealous.
The majority of Jews (who are currently not the elect) are rejected even as they reject God's Messiah; somehow (Paul is not quite clear) this opens room for Gentile inclusion. But that is not the end of their story...
12 Now if their trespass means riches for the world, and if their failure means riches for the Gentiles, how much more will their full inclusion mean!
(Rom 11:11-12 ESV)
It seems here that Paul anticipates an influx of Jews after the Gentile mission concludes. Indeed...
15 For if their rejection means the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance mean but life from the dead? (Rom 11:15 ESV)
It is upon their acceptance that the general resurrection is to occur.
After cautioning his Gentile readership against arrogance, he comes back to this theme of the present elect and the obstinate Jews.
25 Lest you be wise in your own sight, I do not want you to be unaware of this mystery, brothers: a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.
Again, the mission to Israel has been suspended. There is a very small elect in the meantime. But once the Gentile mission is at an end, the hardness too will soften...
26 And in this way all Israel will be saved, as it is written, "The Deliverer will come from Zion, he will banish ungodliness from Jacob";
27 "and this will be my covenant with them when I take away their sins." (Rom 11:25-27 ESV).
The Covenants of God cannot be broken: His covenant is ultimately to take away their sins.
29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.
30 For just as you were at one time disobedient to God but now have received mercy because of their disobedience,
31 so they too have now been disobedient in order that by the mercy shown to you they also may now receive mercy.
32 For God has consigned all to disobedience, that he may have mercy on all.
(Rom 11:29-32 ESV)
This seems to point to universalism.
As I read the full passage, I find it far more complicated than this.Paul is here speaking of "spiritual" Israel*.
Paul does make a distinction between spiritual and ethnic Israel.
I say then, God has not rejected His people, has He? May it never be! For I too am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. (Rom 11:1 NAS)
Here he points out that the elect still includes Jews, as Paul himself is a Jew.
God has not rejected His people whom He foreknew. Or do you not know what the Scripture says in the passage about Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel? (Rom 11:2 NAS)
Here I see Paul looking for a parallel in scripture to his own situation: only a chosen remnant belong to the church (i.e. the new Israel made of Gentile and Jew); just as Elijah was a minority of Jews dedicated to YHWH in a pagan Israel.
In the same way then, there has also come to be at the present time a remnant according to God's gracious choice. (Rom 11:5 NAS)
Thus, Paul and the small number of Jews are a remnant. But already, a Jew reading this would think of the larger O.T. picture in which the remnant were to be a blessing (i.e., a positive influence) upon corporate Israel. They were a remnant for Israel; not apart from Israel.
7 What then? Israel failed to obtain what it was seeking. The elect obtained it, but the rest were hardened,
8 as it is written, "God gave them a spirit of stupor, eyes that would not see and ears that would not hear, down to this very day." (Rom 11:7-8 ESV)
Here Paul says that this was not unknown to God; it has precedence in Israel's history, as Paul points out in his references.
But the turning point comes here:
11 So I ask, did they stumble in order that they might fall? By no means! Rather through their trespass salvation has come to the Gentiles, so as to make Israel jealous.
The majority of Jews (who are currently not the elect) are rejected even as they reject God's Messiah; somehow (Paul is not quite clear) this opens room for Gentile inclusion. But that is not the end of their story...
12 Now if their trespass means riches for the world, and if their failure means riches for the Gentiles, how much more will their full inclusion mean!
(Rom 11:11-12 ESV)
It seems here that Paul anticipates an influx of Jews after the Gentile mission concludes. Indeed...
15 For if their rejection means the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance mean but life from the dead? (Rom 11:15 ESV)
It is upon their acceptance that the general resurrection is to occur.
After cautioning his Gentile readership against arrogance, he comes back to this theme of the present elect and the obstinate Jews.
25 Lest you be wise in your own sight, I do not want you to be unaware of this mystery, brothers: a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.
Again, the mission to Israel has been suspended. There is a very small elect in the meantime. But once the Gentile mission is at an end, the hardness too will soften...
26 And in this way all Israel will be saved, as it is written, "The Deliverer will come from Zion, he will banish ungodliness from Jacob";
27 "and this will be my covenant with them when I take away their sins." (Rom 11:25-27 ESV).
The Covenants of God cannot be broken: His covenant is ultimately to take away their sins.
29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.
30 For just as you were at one time disobedient to God but now have received mercy because of their disobedience,
31 so they too have now been disobedient in order that by the mercy shown to you they also may now receive mercy.
32 For God has consigned all to disobedience, that he may have mercy on all.
(Rom 11:29-32 ESV)
This seems to point to universalism.
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Re: Partial Universalism?
Post #5[Replying to post 4 by liamconnor]
I wouldn't say Paul's writings are complicated so much as "deep". One certainly needs a basic knowledge of elementary biblical teachings before tackling anything written by Paul. Perhaps you might think to learn a little about the different biblical covenants before digging further into this particular topic.
A remnant or a relatively small number of natural Jews did indeed accept Jesus and became part of the SPIRITUAL nation, but not every single one of them.
JW
I wouldn't say Paul's writings are complicated so much as "deep". One certainly needs a basic knowledge of elementary biblical teachings before tackling anything written by Paul. Perhaps you might think to learn a little about the different biblical covenants before digging further into this particular topic.
Yes as I said, the "spiritual nation" of Israel (ie all spirit anointed Christians) includes both Jews and Gentiles. Obviously it does not include each and every indidual Jew as this would include all the wicked Pharisees that plotted to have Jesus killed and who he (Jesus) said had committed the unforgivable sin and where thus reasonably condemned to everlasting destruction; so if by "universalism" you mean every individual Jew will be saved, then as I explained above, this will not be the case.liamconnor wrote:[Paul] points out that the elect still includes Jews, as Paul himself is a Jew.
A remnant or a relatively small number of natural Jews did indeed accept Jesus and became part of the SPIRITUAL nation, but not every single one of them.
JW
Last edited by JehovahsWitness on Fri Jun 30, 2017 12:41 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Partial Universalism?
Post #6[Replying to post 5 by JehovahsWitness]
I believe I gave a more thorough exegetical study of the passage; something that warrants a little more than a repetition of your position.
Do you admit that Paul thinks that the Spiritual Israel will grow after the culmination of the Gentile mission? That is, the present "partial hardening" will be lifted?
I believe I gave a more thorough exegetical study of the passage; something that warrants a little more than a repetition of your position.
Do you admit that Paul thinks that the Spiritual Israel will grow after the culmination of the Gentile mission? That is, the present "partial hardening" will be lifted?
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Re: Partial Universalism?
Post #7[Replying to post 6 by liamconnor]
Do you still hold that every individual Jewish person, past and present will be saved? Because that was the point I addressed.
Do you still hold that every individual Jewish person, past and present will be saved? Because that was the point I addressed.
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"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" - Romans 14:8
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681
"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" - Romans 14:8
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Re: Partial Universalism?
Post #8[Replying to post 7 by JehovahsWitness]
I do not hold it; nor do I deny it.
I am what some call a "hopeful universalist": that is, I would not be disappointed to discover that God's Love eventually conquered all doubt, all disbelief, all hate, all self-centeredness.
My question for debate is, do we find any evidence for this hope of mine?
My answer is, yes. There is some evidence in support of my hope. The Romans passage is one in particular.
I do not hold it; nor do I deny it.
I am what some call a "hopeful universalist": that is, I would not be disappointed to discover that God's Love eventually conquered all doubt, all disbelief, all hate, all self-centeredness.
My question for debate is, do we find any evidence for this hope of mine?
My answer is, yes. There is some evidence in support of my hope. The Romans passage is one in particular.
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Re: Partial Universalism?
Post #9liamconnor wrote: Do you admit that Paul thinks that the Spiritual Israel will grow after the culmination of the Gentile mission? That is, the present "partial hardening" will be lifted?
Do you admit that the word "Israel" is commonly used to refer to the nation as a whole, rather than each individual within that nation?
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http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681
"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" - Romans 14:8
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681
"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" - Romans 14:8
Re: Partial Universalism?
Post #10The lost tribes have been found through the prophesy of the last days, see here "The United States and Britain in Bible Prophesy"tam wrote: His words would indicate that he believes all of Israel would be saved, yes (all of Israel would include Jews, but certainly encompasses more than just the Jews. Jews descend from the two tribe Kingdom of Judah - Judah and Benjamin, of which Paul descended from Benjamin. But there are ten other tribes - that though they may be 'lost' to man, they would not be lost to God). Past, present, and future (from his perspective).
-------------------------------------------------------
And there is no "partial universalism" because every person throughout all of humanity get saved in the end.liamconnor wrote: Does Paul believe that every single Jew will eventually be saved, both past, future (from his perspective) and present?
Universal salvation is not partial - just as every lost sheep will be recovered.
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