Hell

[Mick]

I go back and forth between eternal conscious hell and conditional immortality (eventual annihilation). I would like to hear what verse(s) convince you of your belief in this matter. I can see both sides but, of course, both can't be true. What do you say?

I am new here and this is my first post so if you don't hear from me again it means I am lost and trying to find my way around.

God bless,
Mick

[onewithhim]

It's not clear why you think those scriptures show that people won't feel anything in "hell."

If they won't, then what is the purpose AT ALL of having them consciously suffer their imprisonment?

The scripture says they are destroyed. How could somebody that is destroyed feel anything, or suffer?

And as the Bible tells, eternal life is for righteous, not for unrighteous. If one doesnt live, how could he suffer or feel or do anything?

Would you read over the posts up to now?

I have read and didnt notice anything that would make difference in to my answers.

I guess I was assuming that you were voting FOR a fiery hell. I see I was most likely mistaken, which is a positive thing. I agree with what you said there.

[onewithhim]

[Replying to post 35 by OnceConvinced]

Peace to you OC!

I really liked your post.

But just to clarify one point for the sake of accuracy:

Its specifically saying that if you don't believe in him you won't be living forever.

The verse is states that if you DO believe in Him, then you WILL be living forever.



The verse itself does not actually speak to those who do not believe in Him. People make the implication that if those who believe in him shall not perish but receive everlasting life, it must mean that those who do not believe in him shall perish and not receive everlasting life.

But that is not necessarily so.





But to everything else, well said.



Peace to you!
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

I believe that the verse DOES mean that those who don't believe will be destroyed. OC's entire post is very good.

[onewithhim]

So you believe that perish means annihilation.

That's all it can possibly mean. Any other meaning is not a standard meaning of the word.

I agree. I can see the argument for annihilation but have trouble with Revelation 14 and Rev 20. I am aware that Revelation is very symbolic but it has meaning and part of that meaning seems to include eternal suffering.

All doctrines have their "difficult verses". It seems to me that the Beast and False Prophet are humans and so Rev. 20:10 has me thinking of eternal torment. Having said that, the majority of verses sway me to annihilation.

What do you say about the Beast and False prophet?

Also, how do I set things up so that I get notification of posts? I nearly missed yours.

God bless,
Mick

If you do some research into the meaning of the Greek word for "torment" you can get an idea of the meaning of what those verses in Revelation actually mean. "Torment" is used to invoke the idea of being restrained by jailers. Jailers would place somebody into a very restrictive situation, where the individual couldn't carry on their usual activities, and this would apply to the devil and his demons and the Beast, etc. To be made to cease all activities would be "torment." This is what actually happens to wicked ones when they are terminated---destroyed completely. They aren't able to do anything.

[Mick]

[Replying to onewithhim]

If you do some research into the meaning of the Greek word for "torment" you can get an idea of the meaning of what those verses in Revelation actually mean. "Torment" is used to invoke the idea of being restrained by jailers.

I'm afraid that I can't agree with that as Rev. 9:5 uses the same Greek word for 'torment' and says, "They were not given power to kill them, but only to torture [torment] them for five months. And the agony they suffered was like that of the sting of a scorpion when it strikes a man".

God bless,
Mick

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to onewithhim]

If you do some research into the meaning of the Greek word for "torment" you can get an idea of the meaning of what those verses in Revelation actually mean. "Torment" is used to invoke the idea of being restrained by jailers.

I'm afraid that I can't agree with that as Rev. 9:5 uses the same Greek word for 'torment' and says, "They were not given power to kill them, but only to torture [torment] them for five months. And the agony they suffered was like that of the sting of a scorpion when it strikes a man".

God bless,
Mick

And did you do some research as Onewithhim suggested?

[Mick]

[Replying to JehovahsWitness]

And did you do some research as Onewithhim suggested?

Yes, by comparing scripture with scripture I found Rev. 9:5. This verse contains two Greek words for torment -
G928 meaning "to torture: - pain, toil, torment, toss, vex."
G929 meaning "torture: - torment.

God bless,
Mick

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to JehovahsWitness]

And did you do some research as Onewithhim suggested?

Yes, by comparing scripture with scripture I found Rev. 9:5. This verse contains two Greek words for torment -
G928 meaning "to torture: - pain, toil, torment, toss, vex."
G929 meaning "torture: - torment.

God bless,
Mick

And did you actually look up any cross references for the above in an Greek Lexicon or an interlinear? Did you even googe?

[Left Site]

So you believe that perish means annihilation.

That's all it can possibly mean. Any other meaning is not a standard meaning of the word.

I agree. I can see the argument for annihilation but have trouble with Revelation 14 and Rev 20. I am aware that Revelation is very symbolic but it has meaning and part of that meaning seems to include eternal suffering.

All doctrines have their "difficult verses". It seems to me that the Beast and False Prophet are humans and so Rev. 20:10 has me thinking of eternal torment. Having said that, the majority of verses sway me to annihilation.

What do you say about the Beast and False prophet?

Also, how do I set things up so that I get notification of posts? I nearly missed yours.

God bless,
Mick

If you do some research into the meaning of the Greek word for "torment" you can get an idea of the meaning of what those verses in Revelation actually mean. "Torment" is used to invoke the idea of being restrained by jailers. Jailers would place somebody into a very restrictive situation, where the individual couldn't carry on their usual activities, and this would apply to the devil and his demons and the Beast, etc. To be made to cease all activities would be "torment." This is what actually happens to wicked ones when they are terminated---destroyed completely. They aren't able to do anything.

It's a small world! I was just today pondering this subject and had heard about what you here describe concerning jailers but was unable to come up with anything on it.

What I did do was trace the word for torment at Revelation 14:11 (basanismos) down through (basanizo) to (basanos).

Basanos means "a touch-stone", which, from all I could find, is a stone used to test metal. That made sense in that I know God is separating men like precious metals to himself out of the earth which is why the earth becomes like a fiery furnace like as a smelter.

It would seem that places like Revelation 14:11 are speaking only of the smoke remaining after that process is finished and the torment or testing completed. For it is the smoke of their torment which ascends up for ever and ever. That would same like they flunked the testing and were vaporized into smoke, the ascending up forever and ever being the lesson learned by all onlookers who then would never make the same mistake these vaporized ones made. Never is forever. So that forever lasting lesson would linger like smoke from off of the past torment of those who worshiped the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead. But they are actually destroyed and gone.

That would seem to harmonize with Deuteronomy 32:22 where this figurative illustration seems to have gotten it's start. We can see there that these were yet alive at the time they suffered this torment.

"Hell" is a word that should not be in the Bible at all. It was very clearly infused to the Bible in the second or third century after Christ's death as a means to make the Bible more acceptable top the pagan populous of Rome who already believed in hell. I don't know if that was just the churches way of trying to win converts of the pagan populous or if it was more their fraternization with the pagan emperors that brought it about. But one thing for certain is that hell is a pagan idea which after being combined into the scriptures has caused many to see God as cruel. So there is no doubt who the church's allowing it's entry served, and it sure did not serve Jehovah or Jesus Christ.

Anyway, if you would speak more about that jailers thought or give a url to somewhere that speaks of it, I would very much appreciate it.

By the way, the word translated as "rest" there in Revelation 14:11 means more literally "intermission." So it is expressing the idea of being trapped in the forever consequences of their actions. It is not saying they are awake and conscious so as to know it.

[Mick]

[Replying to JehovahsWitness]

And did you actually look up any cross references for the above in an Greek Lexicon or an interlinear? Did you even googe?

Yes, if you check your interlinear you will find that it is quite clear. Rev.14:10 says they will be tormented (G928 meaning "to torture: - pain, toil, torment, toss, vex.") with burning sulphur. It's pretty plain as a person cannot be tormented with burning sulphur and feel no pain.

God bless,
Mick

[Mick]

[Replying to post 48 by BusB]

It would seem that places like Revelation 14:11 are speaking only of the smoke remaining after that process is finished and the torment or testing completed. For it is the smoke of their torment which ascends up for ever and ever.

Yes, I have had that thought.

I am trying to figure out exactly what Rev. 14:11 and Rev. 20:10 mean regarding eternal conscious torment. I am inclined to believe in unconditional immortality (annihilation) but these verses just don't seem to align with it.

God bless,
Mick