Paradise on Earth

onewithhim · Post by **onewithhim** » Fri Nov 18, 2016 12:25 am

When I learned that the Bible speaks of a restored Garden of Eden and the restoration of mankind to the perfection and endless life that Adam forfeited, I was thrilled. Who doesn't want to keep living on this beautiful earth, with our loved ones, and being able to do all the things we love to do---endlessly?

If God said to you today, "When do you want to die?" would you say "now!!"? I don't think very many people would say that.

We CAN live forever here on Earth. The Bible tells us that we can.

Matthew 5:5
Psalm 37:9-11,29

RightReason · Post by **RightReason** » Fri Jun 30, 2017 4:33 pm

[Replying to post 598 by JehovahsWitness]

So Isaiah chapter 6 verse 9 makes you want to vomit?

No, as I explained perfectly clearly -- it is your interpretation of Isaiah 6, which makes me queasy.

JehovahsWitness · Post by **JehovahsWitness** » Fri Jun 30, 2017 9:55 pm

RightReason wrote: [Replying to post 598 by JehovahsWitness]

So Isaiah chapter 6 verse 9 makes you want to vomit?
No

okay, so ignore my earlier post; I worded it wrong. Sorry. Can you respond to the post below?

JehovahsWitness · Post by **JehovahsWitness** » Fri Jun 30, 2017 9:57 pm

ISAIAH 9:6

New International Version
For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

New Living Translation
For a child is born to us, a son is given to us. The government will rest on his shoulders. And he will be called: Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

English Standard Version
For to us a child is born, to us a son is given; and the government shall be upon his shoulder, and his name shall be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

New American Standard Bible
For a child will be born to us, a son will be given to us; And the government will rest on His shoulders; And His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace.

King James Bible
For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counseller, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
For a child will be born for us, a son will be given to us, andthe government will be on His shoulders. He will be named Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace.

International Standard Version
For to us a child is born, to us a son is given; and the government will be upon his shoulder, and his name is called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

New Heart English Bible
For to us a child is born. To us a son is given; and the government will be on his shoulders. His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

GOD'S WORD Translation
A child will be born for us. A son will be given to us. The government will rest on his shoulders. He will be named: Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

JPS Tanakh 1917
For a child is born unto us, A son is given unto us; And the government is upon his shoulder; And his name is called Pele-joez-el-gibbor-Abi-ad-sar-shalom;

New American Standard 1977
For a child will be born to us, a son will be given to us;
And the government will rest on His shoulders;
And His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God,
Eternal Father, Prince of Peace.

Jubilee Bible 2000
For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given, and the government is placed upon his shoulder, and his name shall be called The Wonderful One, The Counsellor, The God, The Mighty One, The Eternal Father, The Prince of Peace.

King James 2000 Bible
For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counselor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

American King James Version
For to us a child is born, to us a son is given: and the government shall be on his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counselor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

American Standard Version
For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given; and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

Douay-Rheims Bible
For a CHILD IS BORN to us, and a son is given to us, and the government is upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called, Wonderful, Counsellor, God the Mighty, the Father of the world to come, the Prince of Peace.

Darby Bible Translation
For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given; and the government shall be upon his shoulder; and his name is called Wonderful, Counsellor, Mighty God, Father of Eternity, Prince of Peace.

RightReason wrote:
"a new ... government."
I think I just threw up in my mouth a little. A new government? Yikes!

QUESTION: How do you feel after reading the scripture above that mentions "a government"?

RightReason · Post by **RightReason** » Fri Jun 30, 2017 10:08 pm

[Replying to JehovahsWitness]

I already responded to this. Did you miss it? Here it is again:

Yes. My point stands. You reduce the world to some political government. You cite only the translations you selected. Here are others giving a better understanding of the meaning of the text:

For a son has been born for us, a son has been given to us, and dominion has been laid on his shoulders; and this is the name he has been given, 'Wonder-Counsellor, Mighty-God, Eternal-Father, Prince-of-Peace'

For a Child hath been born to us, A Son hath been given to us, And the princely power is on his shoulder, And He doth call his name Wonderful, Counsellor, Mighty God, Father of Eternity, Prince of Peace.

So, even when we allow translations with the word government, they dont mean a literal earthly political government.

What is meant by the government shall rest upon His shoulders? Clearly this is not speaking about earthly governments or to the idea that Jesus Christ would be an earthly King, for Jesus said My kingdom is not of this world (John 18:36). Rather, the idea presented in the New Testament is that Jesus Christ brought the new covenant to Gods people and as such is Ruler, Sovereign, and Lord of that Kingdom.

https://carm.org/literal-interpretation-isaiah

And Marco said it better than I . . .

They certainly don't teach what onewithhim says about "government." Pilate, too, got confused about the worldly and the ethereal and was reminded that the word "kingdom", like the word "earth", can refer to spiritual realms. "Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither hath it entered into the heart of man what things God hath prepared......." and so making what God has prepared more of the same, only lusher meadows and tame tigers, approaches a childlike understanding of figurative language.

The Beatitudes are promises of reward for those who seem to suffer hardship here; in the next world wrongs will be righted. When Christ used the phrase "inherit the earth" he is doing what he likes doing, making his promise parallel Scripture but with the difference that his words are metaphor while the old understanding is literal and parochial. I suppose it is easy, if far-fetched, to confuse Christ's language and suppose that the planet that is third from the sun will get a face-lift and folk will live in second-hand accommodation. This is amusing and perhaps Christ did have a cruel sense of humour but surely it is best to take the sensible option and accept Christ is referring to heavenly rewards.... using EARTHLY language.

JehovahsWitness · Post by **JehovahsWitness** » Fri Jun 30, 2017 10:10 pm

RightReason wrote:[Replying to JehovahsWitness]

I already responded to this. Did you miss it?

You answered a question I have since retracted and apologised for. My new question is above in post 603 here is the link to the new question
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 603#873603

I have not mentioned my interpretation of the verses at all. If you look carefully the only words I posted in my new post since my retraction is a question.

JW

For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders.

RightReason wrote:I think I just threw up in my mouth a little. A new government? Yikes!

RightReason · Post by **RightReason** » Fri Jun 30, 2017 11:14 pm

[Replying to post 605 by JehovahsWitness]

Again, I already responded -- now for the third time . . .

Yes. My point stands. You reduce the world to some political government. You cite only the translations you selected. Here are others giving a better understanding of the meaning of the text:

For a son has been born for us, a son has been given to us, and dominion has been laid on his shoulders; and this is the name he has been given, 'Wonder-Counsellor, Mighty-God, Eternal-Father, Prince-of-Peace'

For a Child hath been born to us, A Son hath been given to us, And the princely power is on his shoulder, And He doth call his name Wonderful, Counsellor, Mighty God, Father of Eternity, Prince of Peace.

So, even when we allow translations with the word government, they dont mean a literal earthly political government.

What is meant by the government shall rest upon His shoulders? Clearly this is not speaking about earthly governments or to the idea that Jesus Christ would be an earthly King, for Jesus said My kingdom is not of this world (John 18:36). Rather, the idea presented in the New Testament is that Jesus Christ brought the new covenant to Gods people and as such is Ruler, Sovereign, and Lord of that Kingdom.

https://carm.org/literal-interpretation-isaiah

And Marco said it better than I . . .

Quote:
They certainly don't teach what onewithhim says about "government." Pilate, too, got confused about the worldly and the ethereal and was reminded that the word "kingdom", like the word "earth", can refer to spiritual realms. "Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither hath it entered into the heart of man what things God hath prepared......." and so making what God has prepared more of the same, only lusher meadows and tame tigers, approaches a childlike understanding of figurative language.

The Beatitudes are promises of reward for those who seem to suffer hardship here; in the next world wrongs will be righted. When Christ used the phrase "inherit the earth" he is doing what he likes doing, making his promise parallel Scripture but with the difference that his words are metaphor while the old understanding is literal and parochial. I suppose it is easy, if far-fetched, to confuse Christ's language and suppose that the planet that is third from the sun will get a face-lift and folk will live in second-hand accommodation. This is amusing and perhaps Christ did have a cruel sense of humour but surely it is best to take the sensible option and accept Christ is referring to heavenly rewards.... using EARTHLY language.

RightReason · Post by **RightReason** » Fri Jun 30, 2017 11:25 pm

I'm curious -- a question for JW's . . .

Are the pictures in these images what you picture in your paradise earth? I'm also curious how you think it works with regards to a new earth running very similiarly to now. These pictures show adults and children and people of varrying ages. What age will you be on paradise earth? And I don't mean the literal number, but what age will your body look like? Who gets to look like the six year old and who will get to look like the 80 year old? Could I choose my perfect hot 25 year old body? These are actually serious questions. I'm just wondering what JW's think about these things.

I know as a Catholic theologians have often discussed what our resurrected bodies might be like. I've heard one theory that you would get your body at its most perfect state, but I can't but help picturing heaven then full of 30 year old looking people.

RightReason · Post by **RightReason** » Fri Jun 30, 2017 11:28 pm

Kind of on topic so had to post

RightReason · Post by **RightReason** » Sat Jul 01, 2017 12:28 pm

[Replying to RightReason]

I also wanted to add . . . how come JW pictures of paradise earth don't show everyone naked? Weren't Adam and Eve naked prior to the fall because there was no shame. Won't we all be naked?

marco · Post by **marco** » Sat Jul 01, 2017 1:05 pm

RightReason wrote: [Replying to RightReason]

I also wanted to add . . . how come JW pictures of paradise earth don't show everyone naked? Weren't Adam and Eve naked prior to the fall because there was no shame. Won't we all be naked?

There are so many absurdities in the concept of New Planet Earth with the Andreas Fault belatedly corrected and some of the human bridges repaired by expert angelic craftsmanship. It is amusing to think of God sending a squad of angels out with bulldozers. That he waits for a period of earthly years before starting his engineering works is equally amusing. The dignity of the Te Deum would be reduced to laughter were this geographical theology the subject of song.

Do people honestly think that lions will eat grass? When Christ spoke of being born again, some thought he meant a literal exit from the maternal womb in boots and coat, so I suppose lions licking lambs and eating winter cherries is an easy mistake to make as well. O sancta simplicitas!