I go back and forth between eternal conscious hell and conditional immortality (eventual annihilation). I would like to hear what verse(s) convince you of your belief in this matter. I can see both sides but, of course, both can't be true. What do you say?
I am new here and this is my first post so if you don't hear from me again it means I am lost and trying to find my way around.
God bless,
Mick
Hell
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JehovahsWitness
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Re: Hell
Post #61That's okay, I put a red box around the relevant expression, can you see the red boxes? Can you see the one that says "a euphemism for jailer"? What in your opinion does the expression "a euphemism for jailer" mean?Mick wrote:I didn't read the Google links ...
JW
Last edited by JehovahsWitness on Sat Jul 01, 2017 6:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681
"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" - Romans 14:8
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681
"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" - Romans 14:8
Re: Hell
Post #62[Replying to post 60 by JehovahsWitness]
You are losing me a little. Can you get to the point please?
God bless,
Mick
You are losing me a little. Can you get to the point please?
God bless,
Mick
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JehovahsWitness
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Re: Hell
Post #63[Replying to post 62 by Mick]
That's okay too, just read my questions and try and find the answers, you'll find your own way to the point if you do. (see above)
JW
That's okay too, just read my questions and try and find the answers, you'll find your own way to the point if you do. (see above)
JW
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681
"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" - Romans 14:8
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681
"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" - Romans 14:8
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tam
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Post #64
Peace to you,
In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire. Jude 1:7
I imagine the (literal) smoke from the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah went up for quite some time.
Yet even while the smoke was going up, there was no one left LIVING in the cities TO suffer. The only thing left was the smoke OF that destruction... which destruction is eternal.
This is what I received from the Spirit. Perhaps it will help you to understand as well.
(keep in mind that the Adversary - the devil - is a much stronger being than us; so it may take longer for him to be destroyed, but he too will be destroyed, and his destruction is eternal as well.)
Peace again to you Mick, and to your loved ones, and to you all,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy
In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire. Jude 1:7
I imagine the (literal) smoke from the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah went up for quite some time.
Yet even while the smoke was going up, there was no one left LIVING in the cities TO suffer. The only thing left was the smoke OF that destruction... which destruction is eternal.
This is what I received from the Spirit. Perhaps it will help you to understand as well.
(keep in mind that the Adversary - the devil - is a much stronger being than us; so it may take longer for him to be destroyed, but he too will be destroyed, and his destruction is eternal as well.)
Peace again to you Mick, and to your loved ones, and to you all,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy
Post #65
[Replying to tam]
"Conditional Immortality and eternal: Mat_25:46 - Annihilation is eternal punishment; the result of the second death is eternal unlike our earthly death from which we are resurrected. The Bible also talks about eternal judgment in Heb_6:2, eternal salvation in Heb_5:9 and eternal redemption in Heb_9:12. Judgment, salvation and redemption all have eternal results but they don't go on and on eternally. Jud_1:7 says that Sodom and Gomorrah suffered the punishment of eternal fire; the fire no longer burns there but the results are eternal (Isa_34:9-10). Likewise, annihilation has eternal results. (The term "eternal torment" is not in the Bible).
2Pe_2:6 says the ungodly will be reduced to ashes (see Mal_4:3 and Isa_66:24 also).
2Th_1:9 tells us that eternal destruction is punishment - eternal punishment and eternal destruction are the same thing. Eternal means that the results last forever. The greatest punishment man can inflict on man is the death penalty. The greatest punishment that God can inflict is eternal destruction " the total cessation of existence in the lake of fire, the second death."
Thanks again and God bless,
Mick
Thanks Tam, I am coming around to believing that. Isa 34:9-10 talk about the smoke of Edom rising forever but it is not there today. I have also made the following notes on the meaning of eternal:I imagine the (literal) smoke from the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah went up for quite some time.
Yet even while the smoke was going up, there was no one left LIVING in the cities TO suffer. The only thing left was the smoke OF that destruction... which destruction is eternal.
"Conditional Immortality and eternal: Mat_25:46 - Annihilation is eternal punishment; the result of the second death is eternal unlike our earthly death from which we are resurrected. The Bible also talks about eternal judgment in Heb_6:2, eternal salvation in Heb_5:9 and eternal redemption in Heb_9:12. Judgment, salvation and redemption all have eternal results but they don't go on and on eternally. Jud_1:7 says that Sodom and Gomorrah suffered the punishment of eternal fire; the fire no longer burns there but the results are eternal (Isa_34:9-10). Likewise, annihilation has eternal results. (The term "eternal torment" is not in the Bible).
2Pe_2:6 says the ungodly will be reduced to ashes (see Mal_4:3 and Isa_66:24 also).
2Th_1:9 tells us that eternal destruction is punishment - eternal punishment and eternal destruction are the same thing. Eternal means that the results last forever. The greatest punishment man can inflict on man is the death penalty. The greatest punishment that God can inflict is eternal destruction " the total cessation of existence in the lake of fire, the second death."
Thanks again and God bless,
Mick
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2timothy316
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Post #66
[Replying to post 65 by Mick]
Hi Mick! Doesn't it feel good to have actual Biblical evidence that eternal torture is not true?
Another note you might want to add is The last enemy, death, is to be brought to nothing."1 Cor 15:26. Compare that with Rev 20:14, "And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.." (KJV)
The above scriptures is what forever put out the fires of Hell for me. Lake of fire and second death mean the same thing. 1 Cor 15:26 explains what the Lake of Fire and second death are, which is nothingness. Complete annihilation. While it's not eternal torture it is still somewhere we most certainly do not want to be cast. To be cast there means a person are as useless as death and the grave will become. 2 Timothy 3:2-5 breaks it down as what can qualify a person as useless as death.
"For men will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boastful, haughty, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, disloyal, having no natural affection, not open to any agreement, slanderers, without self-control, fierce, without love of goodness, betrayers, headstrong, puffed up with pride, lovers of pleasures rather than lovers of God, having an appearance of godliness but proving false to its power."
Paul admonishes us about these things to, "turn away". We all struggle with the above things and we might even find ourselves acting out one or more of the above. However, we can't let them take root in our hearts. We must 'turn away' from them as soon as we find ourselves on one of those paths.
Hi Mick! Doesn't it feel good to have actual Biblical evidence that eternal torture is not true?
Another note you might want to add is The last enemy, death, is to be brought to nothing."1 Cor 15:26. Compare that with Rev 20:14, "And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.." (KJV)
The above scriptures is what forever put out the fires of Hell for me. Lake of fire and second death mean the same thing. 1 Cor 15:26 explains what the Lake of Fire and second death are, which is nothingness. Complete annihilation. While it's not eternal torture it is still somewhere we most certainly do not want to be cast. To be cast there means a person are as useless as death and the grave will become. 2 Timothy 3:2-5 breaks it down as what can qualify a person as useless as death.
"For men will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boastful, haughty, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, disloyal, having no natural affection, not open to any agreement, slanderers, without self-control, fierce, without love of goodness, betrayers, headstrong, puffed up with pride, lovers of pleasures rather than lovers of God, having an appearance of godliness but proving false to its power."
Paul admonishes us about these things to, "turn away". We all struggle with the above things and we might even find ourselves acting out one or more of the above. However, we can't let them take root in our hearts. We must 'turn away' from them as soon as we find ourselves on one of those paths.
Post #67
[Replying to 2timothy316]
Yes, the more I look at it the more convinced I become. Most verses make annihilaton glaringly obvious but a few snare my thinking so I go in circles. I will be studying what others have to say about the Rev. passages as they are the 'tricky ones' to me.
Thanks for your comments.
God bless,
Mick
[/quote]
Hello 2timothy316,Hi Mick! Doesn't it feel good to have actual Biblical evidence that eternal torture is not true?
Yes, the more I look at it the more convinced I become. Most verses make annihilaton glaringly obvious but a few snare my thinking so I go in circles. I will be studying what others have to say about the Rev. passages as they are the 'tricky ones' to me.
Amen, otherwise we will face the lake of fire.Paul admonishes us about these things to, "turn away". We all struggle with the above things and we might even find ourselves acting out one or more of the above. However, we can't let them take root in our hearts. We must 'turn away' from them as soon as we find ourselves on one of those paths.
Thanks for your comments.
God bless,
Mick
[/quote]
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ttruscott
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Post #68
tam wrote: Peace to you,
In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire. Jude 1:7
I imagine the (literal) smoke from the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah went up for quite some time.
Yet even while the smoke was going up, there was no one left LIVING in the cities TO suffer. The only thing left was the smoke OF that destruction... which destruction is eternal.
When words are used in a way that contradicts their normal and usual use to fit a theology, I think it is considered to be sophistry...
PCE Theology as I see it...
We had an existence with a free will in Sheol before the creation of the physical universe. Here we chose to be able to become holy or to be eternally evil in YHWH's sight. Then the physical universe was created and all sinners were sent to earth.
This theology debunks the need to base Christianity upon the blasphemy of creating us in Adam's sin.
We had an existence with a free will in Sheol before the creation of the physical universe. Here we chose to be able to become holy or to be eternally evil in YHWH's sight. Then the physical universe was created and all sinners were sent to earth.
This theology debunks the need to base Christianity upon the blasphemy of creating us in Adam's sin.
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ttruscott
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Post #69
I can see how many would disagree in that the punishment ends with annihilation...if there is no one to be punished any longer, the punishment is essentially over / ended.Mick wrote:2Th_1:9 tells us that eternal destruction is punishment - eternal punishment and eternal destruction are the same thing. Eternal means that the results last forever. The greatest punishment man can inflict on man is the death penalty. The greatest punishment that God can inflict is eternal destruction " the total cessation of existence in the lake of fire, the second death."
To be in the lake of fire is to be destroyed whether you are annihilated or not.
PCE Theology as I see it...
We had an existence with a free will in Sheol before the creation of the physical universe. Here we chose to be able to become holy or to be eternally evil in YHWH's sight. Then the physical universe was created and all sinners were sent to earth.
This theology debunks the need to base Christianity upon the blasphemy of creating us in Adam's sin.
We had an existence with a free will in Sheol before the creation of the physical universe. Here we chose to be able to become holy or to be eternally evil in YHWH's sight. Then the physical universe was created and all sinners were sent to earth.
This theology debunks the need to base Christianity upon the blasphemy of creating us in Adam's sin.
Post #70
[Replying to ttruscott]
Hello ttruscott,
Conditional Immortality and eternal: Mat_25:46 - Annihilation is eternal punishment; the result of the second death is eternal unlike our earthly death from which we are resurrected. The Bible also talks about eternal judgment in Heb_6:2, eternal salvation in Heb_5:9 and eternal redemption in Heb_9:12. Judgment, salvation and redemption all have eternal results but they don't go on and on eternally. Jud_1:7 says that Sodom and Gomorrah suffered the punishment of eternal fire; the fire no longer burns there but the results are eternal (Isa_34:9-10). Likewise, annihilation has eternal results. (The term "eternal torment" is not in the Bible).
2Pe_2:6 says the ungodly will be reduced to ashes (See Mal_4:3 and Isa_66:24 also).
God bless,
Mick
Hello ttruscott,
I agree but have been swayed by the following (I put this in an earlier post so you may have seen it) -I can see how many would disagree in that the punishment ends with annihilation...if there is no one to be punished any longer, the punishment is essentially over / ended.
Conditional Immortality and eternal: Mat_25:46 - Annihilation is eternal punishment; the result of the second death is eternal unlike our earthly death from which we are resurrected. The Bible also talks about eternal judgment in Heb_6:2, eternal salvation in Heb_5:9 and eternal redemption in Heb_9:12. Judgment, salvation and redemption all have eternal results but they don't go on and on eternally. Jud_1:7 says that Sodom and Gomorrah suffered the punishment of eternal fire; the fire no longer burns there but the results are eternal (Isa_34:9-10). Likewise, annihilation has eternal results. (The term "eternal torment" is not in the Bible).
2Pe_2:6 says the ungodly will be reduced to ashes (See Mal_4:3 and Isa_66:24 also).
God bless,
Mick
