Hell

[Mick]

I go back and forth between eternal conscious hell and conditional immortality (eventual annihilation). I would like to hear what verse(s) convince you of your belief in this matter. I can see both sides but, of course, both can't be true. What do you say?

I am new here and this is my first post so if you don't hear from me again it means I am lost and trying to find my way around.

God bless,
Mick

[ttruscott]

[Replying to ttruscott]
Hello ttruscott,

I can see how many would disagree in that the punishment ends with annihilation...if there is no one to be punished any longer, the punishment is essentially over / ended.

I agree but have been swayed by the following (I put this in an earlier post so you may have seen it) -

Over the last 40 years I feel like I've seen it all - I am so pleasantly surprised by new ideas, Bust Nak, Elijah John, JehovahsWitness, OnceConvinced etc.

But I have not decided where to put my faith but I think the logic tends to support eternal torment which if the parts of the syllogism hold, eternal suffering in the outer darkness is an absolute necessity...which no one has ever contradicted.

[Mick]

[Replying to ttruscott]
.

But I have not decided where to put my faith

I find it a very interesting study so I will be at if for a while. The more I study it, the more I am swayed to annihilation.

[Monta]

[Replying to tam]

I imagine the (literal) smoke from the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah went up for quite some time.

Yet even while the smoke was going up, there was no one left LIVING in the cities TO suffer. The only thing left was the smoke OF that destruction... which destruction is eternal.

Thanks Tam, I am coming around to believing that. Isa 34:9-10 talk about the smoke of Edom rising forever but it is not there today.

Isa 34:9-10
And the streams thereof shall be turned into pitch, and the dust thereof into brimstone, and the land thereof shall become burning pitch.
10 It shall not be quenched night nor day; the smoke thereof shall go up for ever: from generation to generation it shall lie waste; none shall pass through it for ever and ever.

From generation to generation means what it says. We are talking spiritual truths and evils and falsities which Sodom represented and which are still alive today not in some universe but here with us humans. God is not likely to change His mind and do away with Sodom; from generation to generation smoke shall go on forever; smoke of human hatred and perversion.

[Mick]

[Replying to post 73 by Monta]

From generation to generation means what it says

Hello Monta,

The text says that Edom will lie desolate from generation to generation not that the blazing pitch would continue from gen to gen. The fire is no longer.

God bless,
Mick

[2timothy316]

[Replying to post 73 by Monta]

From generation to generation means what it says

Hello Monta,

The text says that Edom will lie desolate from generation to generation not that the blazing pitch would continue from gen to gen. The fire is no longer.

God bless,
Mick

Yes an astute observation. Let's put ourselves in the mindset of a person of the ancient world. We are walking down a dirt road and off in the distance we see smoke rising. As we get closer we see that there is rubble with smoke coming off of it. It doesn't take Sherlock Holmes to understand that there used to be a city there but it was destroyed by fire.

The smoke is just a simple reminder giving a witness as to what happened. This reminder, AKA smoke, is still around today in the way of the Bible. A simple reminder and warning of what can happen or did happen, like smoke. When the Bible says that it will smoke forever means that it will never be rebuilt. It will stay as ash, completely destroyed.

Like a wood chair burned to ash. Once it is ash, that ash can never be turned back into the chair it once was. The same goes for the cities, governments and people the Bible says "Its smoke will keep ascending forever."

So smoke ascending forever notes a few things. 1. That it serves as a reminder. 2. It serves as a warning. 3. It serves as prophecy of how long the sentence of judgement will last.

(Re 9:2-4; compare Joe 2:30, 31; Ac 2:19, 20; Re 9:17, 18.)

The Bible was written so that complex ideas could be explained in simple terms. Plus it was written so that a person in whatever B.C.E. could also be understood by a person in 2017 A.D. People of all time eras understand what it means to burn something. We all understand smoke. We all understand when something is burned to ash in can never be brought back. This is all the Bible is conveying.

So when someone else says, "smoke of human hatred and perversion." Where does such an interpretation come from? When the Bible never puts 'smoke' with human traits only with a possible human end. Example: the psalmist says of the wicked: In smoke they must come to their end. (Ps 37:20) I know of no reference in the Bible of hatred of perversion being tied to 'smoke'.

[Monta]

[Replying to post 73 by Monta]

From generation to generation means what it says

Hello Monta,

The text says that Edom will lie desolate from generation to generation not that the blazing pitch would continue from gen to gen. The fire is no longer.

God bless,
Mick

I need to see the refference.

[myth-one.com]

. . . I think the logic tends to support eternal torment which if the parts of the syllogism hold, eternal suffering in the outer darkness is an absolute necessity...which no one has ever contradicted.

I'll give contradiction a shot:

. . . God is love.

So God created a system whereby beings will suffer eternal torment and God is love.

Please logically explain how your statement and "God is love" can both be true.

Thanks

[ttruscott]

. . . I think the logic tends to support eternal torment which if the parts of the syllogism hold, eternal suffering in the outer darkness is an absolute necessity...which no one has ever contradicted.

I'll give contradiction a shot:

. . . God is love.

So God created a system whereby beings will suffer eternal torment and God is love.

Please logically explain how your statement and "God is love" can both be true.

Thanks

IF the GOD who is love created us to be eternal and unable to be annihilated, perhaps so our heaven could be eternal [Ecclesiastes 3:11], and

IF there is such a thing as an eternal sinfulness that the GOD who is love cannot not forgive and and which the person cannot cure themselves without GODly help, [Matthew 12:31-32, Luke 12:10] and

IF it is true when the Bible says that a little leaven (sin) will leaven (corrupt) the whole lump (person, community, reality) [Galatians 5:9, 1 Corinthians 5:6],

THEN, the eternal banishment from HIS created reality of those who are eternally evil is an absolute necessity to protect those who did not choose to be eternally sinful but wanted to live with HIM in the heavenly state without any further corruption.

I think the wording of the Bible can be so read that all these IFs are accepted as doctrine. Though not all will find this interpretation it is there to be found as the arguments of this topic show.

[tam]

Peace to you, Ted!

. . . I think the logic tends to support eternal torment which if the parts of the syllogism hold, eternal suffering in the outer darkness is an absolute necessity...which no one has ever contradicted.

I'll give contradiction a shot:

. . . God is love.

So God created a system whereby beings will suffer eternal torment and God is love.

Please logically explain how your statement and "God is love" can both be true.

Thanks

IF the GOD who is love created us to be eternal and unable to be annihilated, perhaps so our heaven could be eternal, and

This is a big 'if', Ted.


What need do we have for the tree of Life, then?

We will not live forever unless we eat from the tree of Life, yes?

IF there is such a thing as an eternal sinfulness that the GOD who is love cannot not forgive and and which the person cannot cure themselves without GODly help, and

IF it is true when the Bible says that a little leaven (sin) will leaven (corrupt) the whole lump (person, community, reality)

THEN, the eternal banishment from HIS created reality of those who are eternally evil is an absolute necessity to protect those who did not choose to be eternally sinful but wanted to live with HIM in the heavenly state without any further corruption.

Or eternal destruction (annihilation). That works just as well, does it not? If they are 'no more', then they cannot corrupt anything. Yes?





Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

[myth-one.com]

. . . I think the logic tends to support eternal torment which if the parts of the syllogism hold, eternal suffering in the outer darkness is an absolute necessity...which no one has ever contradicted.

I'll give contradiction a shot:

. . . God is love.

So God created a system whereby beings will suffer eternal torment and God is love.

Please logically explain how your statement and "God is love" can both be true.

Thanks

IF the GOD who is love created us to be eternal and unable to be annihilated, perhaps so our heaven could be eternal [Ecclesiastes 3:11], and . . .

But God did not create us to be eternal and unable to be annihilated.

A mere three chapters into the Bible, Adam & Eve were described as mortals:

And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever: Therefore the Lord God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken. (Genesis 3:22-23)

Mankind was separated from the tree of life so that we could not become immortal!

Granted, the serpent did describe Eve as immortal:

And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die. (Genesis 3:4)

But most people recognize that statement as a lie.

You listed the following verse as support of your claim:

He hath made every thing beautiful in his time: also he hath set the world in their heart, so that no man can find out the work that God maketh from the beginning to the end.

How does this verse support your claim of mankind's "Immortality?"