JESUS IS NOT YHWH

onewithhim · Post by **onewithhim** » Sat May 06, 2017 3:07 pm

Jesus prayed to YHWH, the Father, not to himself. (E.g., Matthew 26:39,42; John 11:41,42; John 17:1-26.) Would he have been praying to himself?

He continually referred to himself as "God's SON," not YHWH Himself. (John 5:19; John 8:28,29; John 10:36; John 17:1.) Even the Jews who hated him recognized that fact (John 19:7). Can he be his own Son?

He applied Isaiah 61:1,2 to himself, at Luke 4:17-21, showing that he was the one anointed BY YHWH, and sent BY YHWH. There are incontrovertibly two Persons mentioned in the passage, and YHWH is the One calling the shots. The anointed one does what YHWH wants. How could they be the same Person?

Psalm 110 is also applied to Jesus at Acts 2:34,35. He is the "Lord," or Messiah, that YHWH speaks to. Was YHWH talking to Himself?

I think that just these few points would show plainly that Jesus is not YHWH. Can anyone explain how THESE REFERENCES, ABOVE, can possibly agree with the premise that Jesus is YHWH? I'm not asking for other Scriptures to be brought in without commenting ON the verses I am asking about. Please give me your reasoning concerning these particular Scriptures. Thank you.

onewithhim · Post by **onewithhim** » Thu Jul 06, 2017 6:24 pm

liamconnor wrote:
The reference is to names which were given. No one gave God his name and no one can change God's name.
Is every one here under the impression that God has names apart from Creation? As if, apart from creation (we are forced to use temporal terms and say before Creation) God would refer to himself as (in Hebrew!) YHWH or Elohim, or (in Greek!) Pater (and then, Father of what?) or theos?

The names of God tell us how God relates to his creation. YHWH is his covenant name: how he relates in a special relationship to creation. One could say (with Heigel) that apart from Creation God does not exist, but that is to depart from all forms of orthodoxy, including (I believe) that of J.W.

In Phil. 2 JEsus is given the name that is above all names. One needs to answer what that name is. Is it Jesus (i.e. Yeshua)? In which case the fifth book of the O.T. has a greater title than the covenantal name of God!

Hello. Who GAVE Jesus this name that is "above every name"? It is a no-brainer that the one who gave Jesus that name (or position) would be exempt from that list of names that Jesus is above.

onewithhim · Post by **onewithhim** » Thu Jul 06, 2017 6:30 pm

liamconnor wrote:
It IS shameful that his power to forgive sins is taken to be proof that Jesus is God. Little Pharisees all over again. It truly undermines the work of Jesus in directing glory to his Father
First, if I walked into a hospital room and said to an invalid, "Your sins are forgiven," would this be fitting, or arrogant, given my status as a mere man?

Second, trinitarian theology has long recognized the reciprocity within the divine economy: the Son loves the Father and the Father loves the Son. Thus, all worship given the Son rebounds to the Father, for the Father is honored when His Son is honored.

To talk of orthodox Christianity devaluing the Father is to expose ignorance of what trinitarian theology actually is.

Where is the third member of your trinity in your second point above? You speak of only TWO.

I do not have any ignorance about what trinitarian theology is. I was raised in it for many years.

Jesus was not a mere man, and neither was (or is) he God.

You are right that all worship (i.e., RESPECT) that is given the Son is rebounded to the Father, and that the Father is honored when the Son is honored. That doesn't mean that the Son must be God and worshipped AS GOD.

liamconnor · Post by **liamconnor** » Fri Jul 07, 2017 11:43 pm

[Replying to post 181 by onewithhim]

Where is the third member of your trinity in your second point above? You speak of only TWO.

Not terribly relevant given the title of the thread.

Jesus was not a mere man, and neither was (or is) he God.

Are you an Arian?

You are right that all worship (i.e., RESPECT) that is given the Son is rebounded to the Father, and that the Father is honored when the Son is honored. That doesn't mean that the Son must be God and worshipped AS GOD.

Can the Son be worshiped as something else? Or are you saying that the Son should not be worshiped at all?

JehovahsWitness · Post by **JehovahsWitness** » Sat Jul 08, 2017 5:38 am

liamconnor wrote:
You are right that all worship (i.e., RESPECT) that is given the Son is rebounded to the Father, and that the Father is honored when the Son is honored. That doesn't mean that the Son must be God and worshipped AS GOD.
Can the Son be worshiped as something else? Or are you saying that the Son should not be worshiped at all?

As you have studied literature, I am feel confident you know that the English word "worship" has not historically been applied to an act of reverence offered considered exclusively to Almighty God but has encompassed much wider range of acts including those of giving honor to dignitaries. Feel free to inform me if you did not know the above and I will stand corrected. In any case, scripturally it is quite evident the word translated into the English "worship" in most bibles, covers an act of obeissance/honor that can legitimately be offered anyone that one considers worthy such honor, thus the distinction made.

Further reading:
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 170#867170

onewithhim · Post by **onewithhim** » Sat Jul 08, 2017 1:26 pm

liamconnor wrote: [Replying to post 181 by onewithhim]

Where is the third member of your trinity in your second point above? You speak of only TWO.

Not terribly relevant given the title of the thread.

Jesus was not a mere man, and neither was (or is) he God.
Are you an Arian?

You are right that all worship (i.e., RESPECT) that is given the Son is rebounded to the Father, and that the Father is honored when the Son is honored. That doesn't mean that the Son must be God and worshipped AS GOD.
Can the Son be worshiped as something else? Or are you saying that the Son should not be worshiped at all?

You speak of the Trinity (three) but do not allow for the Holy Spirit in your statement. So it is relevant regarding what you said.

It is rather plain to see that I would agree with Arius in most that he believed. He followed the Scriptures and not the twisted thinking of the wolves of the apostacy.

The Son can be "worshipped" as the powerful, important Son of God that he is, and not God Himself. He is worshipped similarly to the court judge who requires that we all rise when he enters. That is "worshipping" in the way we are trying to explain "worship." For a man to be worshipped he is merely receiving respect and honor. He need not be being honored for being God. Only God is worshipped AS GOD.

liamconnor · Post by **liamconnor** » Mon Jul 17, 2017 8:40 pm

[Replying to post 184 by onewithhim]

The Son can be "worshipped" as the powerful, important Son of God that he is, and not God Himself. He is worshipped similarly to the court judge who requires that we all rise when he enters. That is "worshipping" in the way we are trying to explain "worship." For a man to be worshipped he is merely receiving respect and honor. He need not be being honored for being God. Only God is worshipped AS GOD.

You use caps for Son of God. How is he a Son of God and not merely one of many sons of God?

onewithhim · Post by **onewithhim** » Wed Jul 19, 2017 10:50 pm

liamconnor wrote: [Replying to post 184 by onewithhim]

The Son can be "worshipped" as the powerful, important Son of God that he is, and not God Himself. He is worshipped similarly to the court judge who requires that we all rise when he enters. That is "worshipping" in the way we are trying to explain "worship." For a man to be worshipped he is merely receiving respect and honor. He need not be being honored for being God. Only God is worshipped AS GOD.
You use caps for Son of God. How is he a Son of God and not merely one of many sons of God?

Because he was the first person who was ever created, by the Father Himself without any other person present. He has lived the longest of any other intelligent creature, and he created all other things using the Father's power. (Colossians 1:15,16) No other son of God is in his league.

liamconnor · Post by **liamconnor** » Wed Jul 19, 2017 11:15 pm

onewithhim wrote:
liamconnor wrote: [Replying to post 184 by onewithhim]

The Son can be "worshipped" as the powerful, important Son of God that he is, and not God Himself. He is worshipped similarly to the court judge who requires that we all rise when he enters. That is "worshipping" in the way we are trying to explain "worship." For a man to be worshipped he is merely receiving respect and honor. He need not be being honored for being God. Only God is worshipped AS GOD.
You use caps for Son of God. How is he a Son of God and not merely one of many sons of God?
Because he was the first person who was ever created, by the Father Himself without any other person present. He has lived the longest of any other intelligent creature, and he created all other things using the Father's power. (Colossians 1:15,16) No other son of God is in his league.

So he is just the first angel? Or is he different from angels?

onewithhim · Post by **onewithhim** » Thu Jul 27, 2017 6:13 pm

liamconnor wrote:
onewithhim wrote:
liamconnor wrote: [Replying to post 184 by onewithhim]

The Son can be "worshipped" as the powerful, important Son of God that he is, and not God Himself. He is worshipped similarly to the court judge who requires that we all rise when he enters. That is "worshipping" in the way we are trying to explain "worship." For a man to be worshipped he is merely receiving respect and honor. He need not be being honored for being God. Only God is worshipped AS GOD.
You use caps for Son of God. How is he a Son of God and not merely one of many sons of God?
Because he was the first person who was ever created, by the Father Himself without any other person present. He has lived the longest of any other intelligent creature, and he created all other things using the Father's power. (Colossians 1:15,16) No other son of God is in his league.
So he is just the first angel? Or is he different from angels?

He's not "just" the first angel. He is the prince over all the angels---the only archangel. The churches are wrong when they teach that there are other archangels. Only one is the archangel. He is different, too, because he created all the other angels. He has a unique relationship with Jehovah, the Father.

ttruscott · Post by **ttruscott** » Sat Jul 29, 2017 5:53 pm

Deuteronomy 6:4 Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one.

In both places "the LORD" is YHWH... "Our GOD" is in fact PLURAL, elohim, our GODs. This fits perfectly with the definition of a Unity of Gen 2:24 That is why a man leaves his father and mother and is united to his wife, and they become ONE flesh. The oneness / unity of flesh cannot be seen anymore than the Unity of Being of the Divine Trinity.

Hear, O Israel: YHWH our GODs are a UNITY is a precise rendition of the words before it was taken over by the mistaken meaning of one.