Paradise on Earth

[onewithhim]

When I learned that the Bible speaks of a restored Garden of Eden and the restoration of mankind to the perfection and endless life that Adam forfeited, I was thrilled. Who doesn't want to keep living on this beautiful earth, with our loved ones, and being able to do all the things we love to do---endlessly?

If God said to you today, "When do you want to die?" would you say "now!!"? I don't think very many people would say that.

We CAN live forever here on Earth. The Bible tells us that we can.

Matthew 5:5
Psalm 37:9-11,29

[onewithhim]

[Replying to JehovahsWitness]

I already responded to this. Did you miss it? Here it is again:

Yes. My point stands. You reduce the world to some political government. You cite only the translations you selected. Here are others giving a better understanding of the meaning of the text:

For a son has been born for us, a son has been given to us, and dominion has been laid on his shoulders; and this is the name he has been given, 'Wonder-Counsellor, Mighty-God, Eternal-Father, Prince-of-Peace'


For a Child hath been born to us, A Son hath been given to us, And the princely power is on his shoulder, And He doth call his name Wonderful, Counsellor, Mighty God, Father of Eternity, Prince of Peace.

So, even when we allow translations with the word government, they dont mean a literal earthly political government.


What is meant by the government shall rest upon His shoulders? Clearly this is not speaking about earthly governments or to the idea that Jesus Christ would be an earthly King, for Jesus said My kingdom is not of this world (John 18:36). Rather, the idea presented in the New Testament is that Jesus Christ brought the new covenant to Gods people and as such is Ruler, Sovereign, and Lord of that Kingdom.

https://carm.org/literal-interpretation-isaiah



And Marco said it better than I . . .

They certainly don't teach what onewithhim says about "government." Pilate, too, got confused about the worldly and the ethereal and was reminded that the word "kingdom", like the word "earth", can refer to spiritual realms. "Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither hath it entered into the heart of man what things God hath prepared......." and so making what God has prepared more of the same, only lusher meadows and tame tigers, approaches a childlike understanding of figurative language.

The Beatitudes are promises of reward for those who seem to suffer hardship here; in the next world wrongs will be righted. When Christ used the phrase "inherit the earth" he is doing what he likes doing, making his promise parallel Scripture but with the difference that his words are metaphor while the old understanding is literal and parochial. I suppose it is easy, if far-fetched, to confuse Christ's language and suppose that the planet that is third from the sun will get a face-lift and folk will live in second-hand accommodation. This is amusing and perhaps Christ did have a cruel sense of humour but surely it is best to take the sensible option and accept Christ is referring to heavenly rewards.... using EARTHLY language.

JW didn't translate Isaiah 9......all of the versions show that a government would be "on the Son's shoulder." "Government" is the same as "dominion" and "princely power." What else could those words mean? So you object to an EARTHLY government, then. Why would you think that the earth is no longer part of God's plan for humans? There are so many references to the earth as our home forever. When Christ said that his Kingdom was not of this "world," he simply meant that his Kingdom did not have as its SOURCE this world of mankind. The source of his Kingdom was in heaven, and his Father gave him all the authority and power; he did not receive his authority from men.

Marco didn't say anything better than you. He misunderstands what Jesus said about ruling during his Millennial Reign. Didn't Jesus give the Apostle John the info that he would be ruling with his co-rulers "OVER THE EARTH"?

"And hast made them for our God a kingdom and priests, and they shall reign over the earth." (Revelation/Apocalypse 5:10, Holy Trinity Edition of the Catholic Bible)

It's sad and almost comical that people might say that Christ possibly has a "cruel sense of humor" and speaks in riddles to his people. I think the Scriptures are saying just what they look like they're saying, and the way that the ancients understood them. No one way back in the patriarchs' day thought of any future reward other than returning to life on the physical earth. It is only with the advent of Christ on Earth and the covenant he made with his disciples that men started thinking about going to heaven to be with him. (Matthew 11:12) All men before John the Baptist looked to the Earth as their home, even after resurrection.

Why would God bother to talk about seasons continuing and never ceasing if He planned on destroying the earth someday? Wouldn't he come right out and say that the earth was going to be gone someday, at, for example, Genesis 8:22?

"While the earth remains,
Seedtime and harvest,
And cold and heat,
And summer and winter,
And day and night
Shall not cease." (NASB)

Wouldn't He have said "until the earth is destroyed" if He planned to get rid of it? "While the earth remains" undoubtedly means "forever." (No one can say that it means anything else.) That clearly means that the seasons will also last forever.

Isaiah mentions the earth being filled with the knowledge of Jehovah, as the waters are covering the very sea. (Isaiah 11:9) That makes me think that the earth will be around for a very long time. A few other Scriptures that lend credence to the belief that the earth will be mankind's eternal home:


"The earth remains forever." (Ecclesiastes 1:4b, NASB)

"The upright shall dwell in the land, and the perfect shall remain in it. But the wicked shall be cut off from the earth, and the transgressors shall be rooted out of it." (Proverbs 2:21,22, KJV) Here the Scriptures differentiate the eternal end of the upright from the end of the wicked. The righteous will live on the earth but the wicked will be removed.

"For evildoers shall be cut off: but those that wait upon the LORD, they shall inherit the earth....The righteous shall inherit the land, and dwell therein forever." (Psalm 37:9,29, KJV)


These are literal utterances. Most of the Bible is addressed to physical people with a physical hope for eternity. The people who will be changed and go to heaven to rule over the earth are few, and constitute the main audience for most of the New Testament.

[onewithhim]

I'm curious -- a question for JW's . . .

Are the pictures in these images what you picture in your paradise earth? I'm also curious how you think it works with regards to a new earth running very similiarly to now. These pictures show adults and children and people of varrying ages. What age will you be on paradise earth? And I don't mean the literal number, but what age will your body look like? Who gets to look like the six year old and who will get to look like the 80 year old? Could I choose my perfect hot 25 year old body? These are actually serious questions. I'm just wondering what JW's think about these things.

I know as a Catholic theologians have often discussed what our resurrected bodies might be like. I've heard one theory that you would get your body at its most perfect state, but I can't but help picturing heaven then full of 30 year old looking people.

Yes, those pictures are what we envision the paradise Earth to be like.

We will all be at the peak age for optimum health and maturity, before the time that our bodies that we have now start to degenerate. Probably around the age Jesus was when he gave up his human life---around 30 years. The six-year old will continue to grow to the optimum age of around 30. Old people will grow young again. Yes, people will be at their most perfect state, and it will be right here on the earth.

[RightReason]

[Replying to onewithhim]

Yes, those pictures are what we envision the paradise Earth to be like.

We will all be at the peak age for optimum health and maturity, before the time that our bodies that we have now start to degenerate. Probably around the age Jesus was when he gave up his human life---around 30 years. The six-year old will continue to grow to the optimum age of around 30. Old people will grow young again. Yes, people will be at their most perfect state, and it will be right here on the earth.

Well then those pictures arent what you think your paradise earth will look like. It would eventually look like a group of all 30 year olds " not the family setting your pictures depict. Also, working and toiling the earth were mans punishment due to the fall and yet JW pictures make it look like we will all be farmers, picking apples and carpenters building houses. Look, apple picking is ok, but not really my idea of eternal heaven and peculiar to show modest primitive wood homes or log cabin type abodes. Is there something sinful about metal skyscrapers or more contemporary looking buildings?

Will there be little babies on this paradise earth? Because I kind of prefer little babies to puppies. That would be my idea of heaven if it were to consist of some kind of earthly paradise and yet how exactly will that happen if we will all be 30? Will women still have babies? Will humans still have sex? Will marriage exist? Your fantasy world makes no sense and is everything Scripture tells us NOT to focus on.

And again, why is everyone wearing clothes? And why 1970 style clothing at that? And like Marco mentioned, you have to admit it is a little humorous to imagine the angels with some bulldozers rebuilding the earth. THAT is not what Scripture intended us to conclude.

Also, no one responded to my question about Alaska and Antarctica. I was completely serious in asking those questions. JW pamphlets never show people in the dry barren desert or frozen tundra and yet those places are part of Gods original earth " are they not?

You have to realize your above paragraph is all speculation. And again it seems to me to focus way too much on the physical and material. Where does the part about us having souls fit into JW theology and becoming one with Christ?

I know you think Scripture supports your paradise earth and literal earthly government theology, but that is not what the majority of Christendom believes. That is not what the first Christians concluded or early Church taught. When I think of heaven, I think of God. I think about finally getting to fully know and see Him. I imagine finally getting it all and of being perfectly full of peace and love not because of where I reside, but because I will finally see things as they really are. I think God is beauty and truth and love and heaven will be for the first time fully experiencing all of those things " not talking to the animals " rather being with our creator, which is what we were created for.

[onewithhim]

[Replying to onewithhim]

Yes, those pictures are what we envision the paradise Earth to be like.

We will all be at the peak age for optimum health and maturity, before the time that our bodies that we have now start to degenerate. Probably around the age Jesus was when he gave up his human life---around 30 years. The six-year old will continue to grow to the optimum age of around 30. Old people will grow young again. Yes, people will be at their most perfect state, and it will be right here on the earth.

Well then those pictures arent what you think your paradise earth will look like. It would eventually look like a group of all 30 year olds " not the family setting your pictures depict. Also, working and toiling the earth were mans punishment due to the fall and yet JW pictures make it look like we will all be farmers, picking apples and carpenters building houses. Look, apple picking is ok, but not really my idea of eternal heaven and peculiar to show modest primitive wood homes or log cabin type abodes. Is there something sinful about metal skyscrapers or more contemporary looking buildings?

Will there be little babies on this paradise earth? Because I kind of prefer little babies to puppies. That would be my idea of heaven if it were to consist of some kind of earthly paradise and yet how exactly will that happen if we will all be 30? Will women still have babies? Will humans still have sex? Will marriage exist? Your fantasy world makes no sense and is everything Scripture tells us NOT to focus on.

And again, why is everyone wearing clothes? And why 1970 style clothing at that? And like Marco mentioned, you have to admit it is a little humorous to imagine the angels with some bulldozers rebuilding the earth. THAT is not what Scripture intended us to conclude.

Also, no one responded to my question about Alaska and Antarctica. I was completely serious in asking those questions. JW pamphlets never show people in the dry barren desert or frozen tundra and yet those places are part of Gods original earth " are they not?

You have to realize your above paragraph is all speculation. And again it seems to me to focus way too much on the physical and material. Where does the part about us having souls fit into JW theology and becoming one with Christ?

I know you think Scripture supports your paradise earth and literal earthly government theology, but that is not what the majority of Christendom believes. That is not what the first Christians concluded or early Church taught. When I think of heaven, I think of God. I think about finally getting to fully know and see Him. I imagine finally getting it all and of being perfectly full of peace and love not because of where I reside, but because I will finally see things as they really are. I think God is beauty and truth and love and heaven will be for the first time fully experiencing all of those things " not talking to the animals " rather being with our creator, which is what we were created for.

We will undoubtedly still have children in Paradise. And we don't know what will be the case when the earth is filled to capacity.

Man's punishment was working the earth with difficulty....by "the sweat of your brow," with thorns and thistles to impede progress. In Paradise it will not be so hard to take care of the environment. Adam wanted to do it on his own, without Jehovah. In Paradise we will have input and assistance by Jehovah, because we will love it!

Our buildings will surely be modern. There's no reason to think that we will not use the technology we have learned up to now, and also Jehovah will show us even more amazing technology. The rustic cabins, etc., are just what some people hold dear to their hearts. Everyone will get to choose what kind of home he wants.

Of course humans will have sex! God made us to do that. Just because Adam & Eve messed up doesn't mean that Jehovah's plans for this earth got junked. And who said that ANGELS will be operating bulldozers? They will be our friends, possibly audibly communicating with us, but it will be OUR job to literally renew the earth. We will get instructions from Jesus and his 144,000 co-rulers.

People are used to wearing clothes, and most of us do not want to go without clothes. The "nakedness" that A&E experienced, I think, was more than a literal nakedness. It went deeper than that, in my opinion.

The barren desert and the frozen tundra were NOT part of God's original plan for the earth. Those things are the result of man's misuse of the planet. Climate drastically changed when the Great Flood occurred, as well. Before the Flood, the whole earth was green, like in a terrarium. There was water around the earth, above our atmosphere. It came down at the time of the Flood.

Most of us focus on the physical because that is how God created us to live. Humans were able to live forever on this material earth, and Adam isn't here only because he chose to rebel against Jehovah. God's plans and purposes haven't changed. There are only 144,000 of Christians who focus on going to heaven because they are the "holy ones" that have been chosen to rule with Christ over the earth. (Daniel 7:13,14,18; IPeter 2:9,10; Revelation 5:10; Revelation 20:4b,6) Their whole mission will be to guide those billions of us who are on the physical earth.

BTW, we don't HAVE souls. We ARE souls, as it is clear to see from the Scriptures. Adam BECAME a living soul....he wasn't GIVEN one. (Genesis 2:7) Even animals are souls, as we can see from the Scriptures, if you look at the Hebrew words for animals, such as at Genesis 1:20,24; Genesis 2:19; Leviticus 11:10,46; Numbers 31:28; Ezekiel 47:9, and the N.T. applies the Greek equivalent of nephesh (the Hebrew for "soul") to animals, for example, at Revelation 8:9 & 16:3 where it is used of creatures in the sea. (The Greek word is psykhe.)

It is plain to see that humans and animals ARE "souls," and we do not have some ethereal thing inside us that departs at death and continues on as a conscious being.

You are free to think whatever you want about God's purpose for humans. I know that He will be "with" us even from heaven, just as He always has been. We don't need to be literally with Him in heaven to have a relationship with Him, and we will get to know all things clearly when we enter the new system of things. In fact, there will never be an end to learning new things. We will be able to know about and fully partake of all of His wonderful creations here on this beautiful planet that He made for us. He never intended for humans to reside in heaven, until Adam rebelled, and only then did God plan for Jesus to come to earth and choose a "little flock" to go to heaven with him to rule over the new system of things.

[RightReason]

[Replying to onewithhim]

We will undoubtedly still have children in Paradise. And we don't know what will be the case when the earth is filled to capacity.

Really? Well, will women still menstruate and ovulate once a month? And if we all remain around 30 years old and never die, you do realize that would be like way more children than the Duggars! You have to realize some of your undoubtedly statements seem to have a few logistics problems, right?

Of course humans will have sex! God made us to do that.

Yes, but Im not sure you quite get that it wont be like sex on earth. And no, you dont know for sure if there will be sexual intercourse as we know it in the here after.

Since you are into speculating, you might find this interesting. I think his thoughts about sex in the here after make a lot more sense than yours. For the entirety of his thoughts heres the link http://www.peterkreeft.com/topics/sex-in-heaven.htm

And once again, I think you are missing the point that we might not desire the same earthly pleasures after we die.


In the most important and obvious sense there is certainly sex in Heaven simply because there are human beings in Heaven. As we have seen, sexuality, like race and unlike clothes, is an essential aspect of our identity, spiritual as well as physical. Even if sex were not spiritual, there would be sex in Heaven because of the resurrection of the body. The body is not a mistake to be unmade or a prison cell to be freed from, but a divine work of art designed to show forth the soul as the soul is to show forth God, in splendor and glory and overflow of generous superfluity.

But is there sexual intercourse in Heaven? If we have bodily sex organs, what do we use them for there?

Not baby-making. Earth is the breeding colony; Heaven is the homeland.

Not marriage. Christ's words to the Sadducees are quite clear about that.

Might there be another function in which baby-making and marriage are swallowed up and transformed, aufgehoben? Everything on earth is analogous to something in Heaven. Heaven neither simply removes nor simply continues earthly things. If we apply this principle to sexual intercourse, we get the conclusion that intercourse on earth is a shadow or symbol of intercourse in Heaven. Could we speculate about what that could be?

It could certainly be spiritual intercourse"and, remember, that includes sexual intercourse because sex is spiritual. This spiritual intercourse would mean something more specific than universal charity. It would be special communion with the sexually complementary; something a man can have only with a woman and a woman only with a man. We are made complete by such union: "It is not good that the man should be alone." And God does not simply rip up His design for human fulfillment. The relationship need not be confined to one in Heaven. Monogamy is for earth. On earth, our bodies are private. In Heaven, we share each other's secrets without shame, and voluntarily. In the Communion of Saints, promiscuity of spirit is a virtue.

The relationship may not extend to all persons of the opposite sex, at least not in the same way or degree. If it did extend to all, it would treat each differently simply because each is different"sexually as well as in other ways. I think there must be some special "kindred souls" in Heaven that we are designed to feel a special sexual love for. That would be the Heavenly solution to the earthly riddle of why in the world John falls for Mary, of all people, and not for Jane, and why romantic lovers feel their love is fated, "in the stars", "made in Heaven".

But this would differ from romantic love on earth in that it would be free, not driven; from soul to body, not from body to soul. Nor would it feel apart from or opposed to the God-relationship, but a part of it or a consequence of it: His design, the wave of His baton. It would also be totally unselfconscious and unselfish: the ethical goodness of agape joined to the passion of eros; agape without external, abstract law and duty, and eros without selfishness or animal drives.

But would it ever take the form of physical sexual intercourse? We should explore this question, not to kowtow to modernity's sexual monomania but because it is an honest question about something of great significance to us now, and because we simply want to know all we can about Heaven.


Since there are bodies in Heaven, able to eat and be touched, like Christ's resurrection body, there is the possibility of physical intercourse. But why might the possibility be actualized? What are its possible purposes and meanings?

We know Heaven by earthly clues. Let us try to read all the clues in earthly intercourse. It has three levels of meaning: the subhuman, or animal; the superhuman, or divine; and the specifically human. (All three levels exist in us humans.)

Animal reasons for intercourse include (i) the conscious drive for pleasure and (2) the unconscious drive to perpetuate the species. Both would be absent in Heaven. For although there are unimaginably great pleasures in Heaven, we are not driven by them. And the species is complete in eternity: no need for breeding.

Transhuman reasons for intercourse include (i) idolatrous love of the beloved as a substitute for God and (2) the Dante-Beatrice love of the beloved as an image of God. As to the first, there is, of course, no idolatry in Heaven. No substitutes for God are even tempting when God Himself is present. As to the second, the earthly beloved was a window to God, a mirror reflecting the divine beauty. That is why the lover was so smitten. Now that the reality is present, why stare at the mirror? The impulse to adore has found its perfect object. Furthermore, even on earth this love leads not to intercourse but to infatuation. Dante neither desired nor enacted intercourse with Beatrice.

Specifically human reasons for intercourse include (1) consummating a monogamous marriage and (2) the desire to express personal love. As to the first, there is no marriage in Heaven. But what of the second?

I think there will probably be millions of more adequate ways to express love than the clumsy ecstasy of fitting two bodies together like pieces of a jigsaw puzzle. Even the most satisfying earthly intercourse between spouses cannot perfectly express all their love. If the possibility of intercourse in Heaven is not actualized, it is only for the same reason earthly lovers do not eat candy during intercourse: there is something much better to do. The question of intercourse in Heaven is like the child's question whether you can eat candy during intercourse: a funny question only from the adult's point of view. Candy is one of children's greatest pleasures; how can they conceive a pleasure so intense that it renders candy irrelevant? Only if you know both can you compare two things, and all those who have tasted both the delights of physical intercourse with the earthly beloved and the delights of spiritual intercourse with God testify that there is simply no comparison.


This spiritual intercourse with God is the ecstasy hinted at in all earthly intercourse, physical or spiritual. It is the ultimate reason why sexual passion is so strong, so different from other passions, so heavy with suggestions of profound meanings that just elude our grasp. No mere practical needs account for it. No mere animal drive explains it. No animal falls in love, writes profound romantic poetry, or sees sex as a symbol of the ultimate meaning of life because no animal is made in the image of God. Human sexuality is that image, and human sexuality is a foretaste of that self-giving, that losing and finding the self, that oneness-in-manyness that is the heart of the life and joy of the Trinity. That is what we long for; that is why we tremble to stand outside ourselves in the other, to give our whole selves, body and soul: because we are images of God the sexual being. We love the other sex because God loves God.

And this earthly love is so passionate because Heaven is full of passion, of energy and dynamism. We correctly deny that God has passions in the passive sense, being moved, driven, or conditioned by them, as we are. But to think of the love that made the worlds, the love that became human, suffered alienation from itself and died to save us rebels, the love that gleams through the fanatic joy of Jesus' obedience to the will of His Father and that shines in the eyes and lives of the saints"to think of this love as any less passionate than our temporary and conditioned passions "is a most disastrous fantasy". And that consuming fire of love is our destined Husband, according to His own promise. Sex in Heaven? Indeed, and no pale, abstract, merely mental shadow of it either. Earthly sex is the shadow, and our lives are a process of thickening so that we can share in the substance, becoming Heavenly fire so that we can endure and rejoice in the Heavenly fire.

http://www.peterkreeft.com/topics/sex-in-heaven.htm

We will get instructions from Jesus and his 144,000 co-rulers.

Ok, this one really bugs me. Quite frankly it is unbelievable to me to take 144,000 literally. That is a huge red flag of what happens when one randomly picks and chooses what in Scripture is to be figurative and what is literal. You realize the JWs originally taught the 144,000 thing because all those first JWs figured they were part of the 144,000. When JWs numbers could no longer support their literal translation of 144,000 they had to adapt their theology. And apparently there are still some today who supposedly are part of the Holy chosen ones. I gotta say that sure would take balls to proclaim oneself one of the 144,000. Not a single Saint of the Catholic Church would ever have considered him/herself some member of the elite Holy ones. Also, we all are called to heaven and thus called to be Holy " it isnt an exclusive club.

People are used to wearing clothes, and most of us do not want to go without clothes.

In a temperature controlled no shame earth I am finding it very difficult to imagine we would give 2 cents about clothes. How amusing.

BTW, we don't HAVE souls. We ARE souls

Yes, and as such we are spiritual beings destined to reside in the spiritual world with our Lord as we are created in the image of God.

He never intended for humans to reside in heaven, until Adam rebelled, and only then did God plan for Jesus to come to earth and choose a "little flock" to go to heaven with him to rule over the new system of things.

Oh my, little flock does not refer to some limited 144,000. How can you believe God would have such a maximum capacity limit " LOL! Little flock refers to all of us and was also specifically addressing the early Church " suggesting thru Gods promise His Little flock could be disciples for the whole nation.

Im sorry, but none of us know exactly what heaven will be like. And once again, I truly believe your theology is off. And that is the problem. What makes you think youre getting it right? By whose authority do you believe JW teaching of a literal paradise earth? You accept this theology from an organization that admittedly does not speak authoritatively. Clearly, as is evident in JW vs. the rest of Christendom sincere intelligent well meaning people can come to different understanding regarding Scripture. Since Scripture itself has proven it cannot alone be our authority, whats a truth seeking Christian to do? Listen to the Church or to a Watchtower Society founded in 1884? I just think JWs are off. Yes, human beings are comprised of body and soul and what that entails for us in the here after remains to be seen, but JW fantasy of a literal paradise earth simply doesnt jive and quite frankly shouldnt be the focus. Jesus Christ will always be the center of my life. My life would not be complete and full even if I were living in some perfect utopia planet. My life will only be complete and full with my Lord and my God!

[onewithhim]

[Replying to onewithhim]

We will undoubtedly still have children in Paradise. And we don't know what will be the case when the earth is filled to capacity.

Really? Well, will women still menstruate and ovulate once a month? And if we all remain around 30 years old and never die, you do realize that would be like way more children than the Duggars! You have to realize some of your undoubtedly statements seem to have a few logistics problems, right?

Of course humans will have sex! God made us to do that.

Yes, but Im not sure you quite get that it wont be like sex on earth. And no, you dont know for sure if there will be sexual intercourse as we know it in the here after.

Since you are into speculating, you might find this interesting. I think his thoughts about sex in the here after make a lot more sense than yours. For the entirety of his thoughts heres the link http://www.peterkreeft.com/topics/sex-in-heaven.htm

And once again, I think you are missing the point that we might not desire the same earthly pleasures after we die.


Ok, this one really bugs me. Quite frankly it is unbelievable to me to take 144,000 literally. That is a huge red flag of what happens when one randomly picks and chooses what in Scripture is to be figurative and what is literal. You realize the JWs originally taught the 144,000 thing because all those first JWs figured they were part of the 144,000. When JWs numbers could no longer support their literal translation of 144,000 they had to adapt their theology. And apparently there are still some today who supposedly are part of the Holy chosen ones. I gotta say that sure would take balls to proclaim oneself one of the 144,000. Not a single Saint of the Catholic Church would ever have considered him/herself some member of the elite Holy ones. Also, we all are called to heaven and thus called to be Holy " it isnt an exclusive club.

People are used to wearing clothes, and most of us do not want to go without clothes.

In a temperature controlled no shame earth I am finding it very difficult to imagine we would give 2 cents about clothes. How amusing.

BTW, we don't HAVE souls. We ARE souls

Yes, and as such we are spiritual beings destined to reside in the spiritual world with our Lord as we are created in the image of God.

He never intended for humans to reside in heaven, until Adam rebelled, and only then did God plan for Jesus to come to earth and choose a "little flock" to go to heaven with him to rule over the new system of things.

Oh my, little flock does not refer to some limited 144,000. How can you believe God would have such a maximum capacity limit " LOL! Little flock refers to all of us and was also specifically addressing the early Church " suggesting thru Gods promise His Little flock could be disciples for the whole nation.

Yes, women will menstruate, as designed in the beginning. I see no problems in logistics. We will just be back to where Adam would've been if he had remained obedient. What would God have done when the earth was comfortably filled, according to His original plans? He'll do the same now. Will we be able to inhabit other planets? Who knows? But I'm not so foolish as to throw the whole idea out the window. I'll just wait and see what He has in mind.

How can you say that we won't have sex like we have it now? What do you have to base that idea on? You are stretching reason to the breaking point. Why should I give a plug nickel for Peter Kreeft's ideas about sex in heaven?? There is no sex in heaven. (Matt.22:30) We were designed to have sex here on the earth. That is why some of the angels left heaven and materialized down here so they could have sex (Genesis 6:2,4).

The bottom line is....we were not made for heaven. Mankind is not going there (with the exception of the co-rulers with Christ). Jehovah never planned for humans to go there. "The earth he has given to the sons of men." (Psalm 115:16) we are not "all called to heaven." We are called to be on this earth that was created for us to live on forever. God did not create it to be trashed, abandoned. (Isaiah 45:18)

Jesus' "little flock" is actually "little" in comparison with the BILLIONS that will live on the earth forever. You would call BILLIONS a "little flock"? You can have your outrageous ideas, and I hope you find some kind of solace before the end of this system of things. Jehovah and Jesus can deal with you. All they ask of me is to tell you about the Good News of the Kingdom and what we have to look forward to in the future on this beautiful planet. You can accept it or not.

[RightReason]

[Replying to onewithhim]

Yes, women will menstruate, as designed in the beginning.

You are quite funny to say with such confidence what is not mentioned in Scripture. How many babies do you think youll have on paradise earth? This is a serious question. One every 9 months?

I see no problems in logistics.

Uummmmm . . . not sure youve thought this through

We will just be back to where Adam would've been if he had remained obedient.

Really? How long were Adam and Eve in paradise until they sinned? Funny, how they had no children until they sinned.

What would God have done when the earth was comfortably filled, according to His original plans?

Again, please dont pretend to know God did not know Adam and Eve would sin. It is contrary to all we know about God.

How can you say that we won't have sex like we have it now? What do you have to base that idea on?

Oh, I dont know things like, Eye has not seen, nor ear heard . . . And the obvious common sense idea like Peter Kreeft brought up about the child asking will I be able to eat candy during sex? Just like it is difficult to explain to the child he will not want to eat candy during sex, it is difficult to explain to you that heaven will be way better than any earthly sex we may have experienced.

Why should I give a plug nickel for Peter Kreeft's ideas about sex in heaven??

Why should I give a plug nickel for JW ideas about sex in heaven?

The bottom line is....we were not made for heaven.

I believe we absolutely were.

Mankind is not going there (with the exception of the co-rulers with Christ). Jehovah never planned for humans to go there.

So, the co-rulers were Gods back up plan? LOL! What a tangled web we weave . . .

Jesus' "little flock" is actually "little" in comparison with the BILLIONS that will live on the earth forever. You would call BILLIONS a "little flock"?

First, we are all His little children or flock " all the billions of us. Billions in comparison to infinite is still quite little, wouldnt you agree?

I hope you find some kind of solace before the end of this system of things. Jehovah and Jesus can deal with you. All they ask of me is to tell you about the Good News of the Kingdom and what we have to look forward to in the future on this beautiful planet. You can accept it or not.

I accept what Christ and His Church have in store for me " not Charles Taze Russell.

[onewithhim]

[Replying to post 627 by RightReason]

That is your prerogative. I'll go with Jehovah's organization. Charles Taze Russell started the Christian church back up after centuries of apostate teaching by Babylon the Great's self-described "Christian" churches. The Bible says that the truth would be practically hidden for a long time, and then, in the last days/ the "harvest time," true knowledge would become abundant. Russell's efforts fit right in with this time-line.

"As for you, Daniel, conceal these words and seal up the book until the end of time; many will go back and forth, and knowledge will increase." (Daniel 12:4, NASB)

"He said, 'Go your way, Daniel, for these words are concealed and sealed up until the end time." (Daniel 12:9, NASB)

(See Matthew 13:24-30 & 37-43.) You can see that the true sons of the Kingdom would be practically choked out by the FALSE sons of the Kingdom, until "the end of the age." Your self-described "Christian" church will be revealed to harbor the "sons of the evil one." We try to warn people so they won't be fooled into siding with these sons of the devil and receiving these sons' fate.

hello! there's still time left

[RightReason]

[Replying to onewithhim]

Russell's efforts fit right in with this time-line.

Isnt that exactly what they also said about all their previous false prophesies? You know, that they all made sense and that they had crunched the numbers and knew that end times were imminent?

That has to concern you. It I wrong to try to determine when the end will come. 36 But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven,[a] but My Father only.

It must bother you that you cant know for sure if your organization is the Church established by Jesus Christ. It has no historicity, no authority, no apostolic succession, no error free teaching, no face to face union with Christ in heaven.

You must sometimes wonder or question the legitimacy of JW. Too much doesnt add up. It is very convenient to call all those who see through JW mistranslation as sons of the evil one. I really do hope though you keep searching for truth and be willing to look into many of the red flags that come up with regards to JW teaching. You are in my prayers. I look forward to meeting you in heaven some day. Perhaps we will be able to laugh about how much we both had wrong, but wont care because we will be with our Father in heaven.

[onewithhim]

[Replying to onewithhim]

Russell's efforts fit right in with this time-line.

Isnt that exactly what they also said about all their previous false prophesies? You know, that they all made sense and that they had crunched the numbers and knew that end times were imminent?

That has to concern you. It I wrong to try to determine when the end will come. 36 But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven,[a] but My Father only.

It must bother you that you cant know for sure if your organization is the Church established by Jesus Christ. It has no historicity, no authority, no apostolic succession, no error free teaching, no face to face union with Christ in heaven.

You must sometimes wonder or question the legitimacy of JW. Too much doesnt add up. It is very convenient to call all those who see through JW mistranslation as sons of the evil one. I really do hope though you keep searching for truth and be willing to look into many of the red flags that come up with regards to JW teaching. You are in my prayers. I look forward to meeting you in heaven some day. Perhaps we will be able to laugh about how much we both had wrong, but wont care because we will be with our Father in heaven.

I think we've been over this before. I perceive that maybe my explanations fall on deaf ears. I wonder if you are not interested in what someone has to say, but are only trying to tear down instead of building up. JWs stopped trying to figure out the year that Christ would come in his Kingdom power. They gave educated guesses but were wrong, as so many others have done. They did not claim to be giving prophecy from God, but only what they thought they discerned from examining the Scriptures. They are not prophets, but are watchmen, assigned to warn of coming events. They have been giving a warning, though venturing into precise dates which it would have been better of them not to have ventured. We know that we are in the last days, as even many churches in Christendom acknowledge. We just do not know the year, day or hour.

I am not bothered in the least about knowing whether or not my organization is the Church established by Jesus Christ. I know that it is. This organization was started with Jesus himself, and his teachings were the basis of belief then, until after the first century when the Apostacy began to have a strong foothold. Jesus told his disciples about that apostacy, and it would last from the first century until the "harvest time," or, "the last days," or, "the end time." (Matt.13) Paul warned:

"I know that after my departure savage wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock; and from among your own selves men will arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away the disciples after them." (Acts 20:29,30, NASB)

That actually happened, and the Roman Catholic Church had its start. It is now time for the "false sons of the Kingdom" to be revealed. It is the "harvest time" of Matthew 13; the "end time" of Daniel ch.12.

JWs have all the history (from Jesus on) and the authority is from him. Our teaching is more error-free than the RCC or any other church. You apparently don't know the history of your church. Try checking it out sometime. Your "apostolic succession" is bogus. That has been explained to you previously on these threads. And we appreciate the planet that God gave us to live on, therefore we see no need to see God or Jesus face-to-face. It was their will that humans live here on the earth, and we are happy to do that.

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