Second Coming in the Sky?

[liamconnor]

Certain biblical authors talk of Christ returning from the sky: Acts and Paul.

Paul tells Christians that they will be caught up to meet him.


There is an obvious imaginative problem here: even if a figure should appear in the sky, that portion of sky will be visible from only so many miles. The number of people who could fly up to surround such a flying figure can only be so many; twenty, thirty?

At any rate, even during Paul's time people in Ephesus could not possibly see clouds in Thessalonia.


Did Paul believe that Jesus would literally return on clouds and therefore in one particular place in space? Or was Paul less interested in such literal details as he was in theological and apocalyptic precedents? Namely, Daniel's apocalypse, where

"I kept looking in the night visions, And behold, with the clouds of heaven One like a Son of Man was coming, And He came up to the Ancient of Days And was presented before Him. (Dan 7:13 NAS)

Daniel clearly uses symbolism throughout much of the book.

Do the early Christians use symbolism also when writing of Jesus' return?

[marco]

I concede absolutely that such notions are totally foreign to modern day readers.

It is generous of you to concede so much but surely unnecessary. We have a Queen here in Britain but the point is we don't have thrones in the sky and Jesus "co-ruling" (whatever that means) from the upper atmosphere. That's a trifle hard to take and I accept your concession in this light.

[marco]

Anachronistic?

Yes. Einstein -20th century man. Paul, somewhere in the 1st.

Aristotle could conceive of the supernatural, as could Plato, as well Philo.

So too could J.K.Rowling. I wonder what the point or relevance is. It was prudent not to mock the gods in those days.

It is a bit naive to a priori ascribe naivety to the ancients.

Some ancients like some moderns would undoubtedly be nave. I absolutely admire Horace and Seneca and Plato and... So no, I'm not calling them nave. It would be stupid of me, not nave, if I did so.

If the Bible writers knew they were composing fiction, I am in awe. I suspect they thought God did step on to mountains and turned people into salt and threw frogs at Egyptians. I call that silly.

We have very good evidence that the Jews did not think God was composed of matter; yet they talk of his having a right hand and sitting on a chair.

That's nice of you to defend "the Jews". I have great sympathy with Jews in modern history ; much of their suffering springs from the bad press they have been given in the NT. But that's by the way. You may be happy to take the Resurrection, Ascension and the days in the wilderness as figurative. Many don't. Some even take tales of Job and Jonah to be literal. O what a tangled web we weave when first we practise to believe.

Anyway, as regards Christ's coming in the sky, it would have been helpful to tell his nave listeners exactly what the metaphor meant.

[onewithhim]

That is all you have to say in reply to my post? You don't see that Paul was not so "simple"?

Paul had a way with words, certainly, though he never quite got round to a full explanation of his Damascus experience.... which is odd. If he was taught humanity by a brilliant teacher, why did he continue to persecute Christians until he fell from his horse and attributed the fall to divine intervention?

That is something no one can know, of course. Conjecture is futile. What we do know is that he changed his mind and began following Jesus. I wonder why you can't say you were in error concerning Paul being "simple." That was my whole point in this discussion....to bring out the fact that he was not "simple." Therefore, what he wrote about the difference between physical bodies and spirit bodies is quite relevant. (I Corinth. 15:40)

[onewithhim]

I concede absolutely that such notions are totally foreign to modern day readers.

It is generous of you to concede so much but surely unnecessary. We have a Queen here in Britain but the point is we don't have thrones in the sky and Jesus "co-ruling" (whatever that means) from the upper atmosphere. That's a trifle hard to take and I accept your concession in this light.

I'm somewhat surprised that you are unfamiliar with passages in the Old and New Testaments referring to Jesus' co-rulers. These verses have been discussed quite a few times.

Daniel 7:13,14,18: 13 "I kept looking in the night visions, and behold, with the clouds of heaven one like a Son of Man was coming, and he came up to the Ancient of Days and was presented before Him. 14 And to him was given dominion, glory and a kingdom, that all the peoples, nations and men of every language might serve him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion which will not pass away; and his kingdom is one which will not be destroyed. 18 The saints of the Highest One will receive the kingdom and possess the kingdom forever, for all ages to come." (NASB)

Who are these "saints" and what are they going to do? For one, they will "possess the kingdom," apparently WITH Jesus, the Son of Man. And I would say that they are the very ones spoken about in Revelation 5:10 & 20:4,6.

To Christ: "Worthy art thou to take the scroll and to open its seals; for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us for God with thy blood, out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation, and hast made them for our God a kingdom and priests, and they shall reign over the earth." (Apocalypse 5:9,10, Holy Trinity Edition of the Catholic Bible)

"Reign of the saints" (the heading in the Catholic Bible)...."And I saw thrones, and men sat upon them and judgment was given to them....They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years....Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection! [To heaven.] Over these the second death [annihilation] has no power; but they will be priests of God and Christ, and will reign with him a thousand years." (Apocalypse 20:4,6; brackets mine)


I guess we need reminders as to what the Bible says. It clearly shows that Jesus will have co-rulers. (See also what Jesus says about this, Matthew 19:28; Matt.20:21-23; and Paul: 2 Timothy 2:12.)

"If we endure, we will also reign with him..." (2 Tim.2:12, NASB)

[marco]

I wonder why you can't say you were in error concerning Paul being "simple." That was my whole point in this discussion....to bring out the fact that he was not "simple." Therefore, what he wrote about the difference between physical bodies and spirit bodies is quite relevant. (I Corinth. 15:40)

I have read what Paul has to say. I said he was no Einstein and so we don't need lessons from him on the difference between various bodies. Relative to what we know today, Paul's science is very simple. Ergo so is he. I am not in error.

[marco]

I'm somewhat surprised that you are unfamiliar with passages in the Old and New Testaments referring to Jesus' co-rulers. These verses have been discussed quite a few times.

Daniel 7:13,14,18: 13 "I kept looking in the night visions, and behold, with the clouds of heaven one like a Son of Man was coming, and he came up to the Ancient of Days and was presented before Him.

You might as well say this is evidence for the Divine Right of Kings. It is obscure prose couched in obscurity.

There is no point in quoting Revelation at me since we can take whatever interpretation pleases us, and people do. When people wrap their speeches in symbols we cannot in all honesty claim we know for certain what these symbols mean.

I find the notion of Christ co-ruling to be an absurdity, as I said. Does he sit on his throne perpetually?

[Trump]

Certain biblical authors talk of Christ returning from the sky: Acts and Paul.

Paul tells Christians that they will be caught up to meet him.


There is an obvious imaginative problem here: even if a figure should appear in the sky, that portion of sky will be visible from only so many miles. The number of people who could fly up to surround such a flying figure can only be so many; twenty, thirty?

At any rate, even during Paul's time people in Ephesus could not possibly see clouds in Thessalonia.


Did Paul believe that Jesus would literally return on clouds and therefore in one particular place in space? Or was Paul less interested in such literal details as he was in theological and apocalyptic precedents? Namely, Daniel's apocalypse, where

"I kept looking in the night visions, And behold, with the clouds of heaven One like a Son of Man was coming, And He came up to the Ancient of Days And was presented before Him. (Dan 7:13 NAS)

Daniel clearly uses symbolism throughout much of the book.

Do the early Christians use symbolism also when writing of Jesus' return?

Acts 1:11 tells us that Jesus will "come in the same manner as you have beheld him going into the sky." How was that? He was OBSCURED by the clouds. They couldn't see him any more.

When he returns it will be an event that he negotiates from heaven, therefore invisibly. Nations will "see" him with eyes of understanding. Jesus said that people can look at something but do not really "see" or, understand. "I speak to them in parables; because while seeing they do NOT see, and while hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand." (Matt.13:13, NASB) When he returns people will absolutely "see" that he has come to put an end to all wickedness. They will all understand, though they don't literally see him with their eyes.

Jesus' co-rulers will not be visible to anyone from the ground. When they are called to meet him in the air, they will be invisible, in spirit bodies, as Paul explained in I Corinthians 15: 40,42-53. There is no problem for Jesus to welcome any person from any part of the world.

.

The spirit is not corruptible, or perishable so according to your understanding, what would your quoted verses mean? especially verse 53?

1Corrinthians 15: 52 in an instant, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53 For the perishable must be clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. 54 When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come to pass: Death has been swallowed up in victory.

[Trump]

Certain biblical authors talk of Christ returning from the sky: Acts and Paul.

Paul tells Christians that they will be caught up to meet him.


There is an obvious imaginative problem here: even if a figure should appear in the sky, that portion of sky will be visible from only so many miles. The number of people who could fly up to surround such a flying figure can only be so many; twenty, thirty?

At any rate, even during Paul's time people in Ephesus could not possibly see clouds in Thessalonia.


Did Paul believe that Jesus would literally return on clouds and therefore in one particular place in space? Or was Paul less interested in such literal details as he was in theological and apocalyptic precedents? Namely, Daniel's apocalypse, where

"I kept looking in the night visions, And behold, with the clouds of heaven One like a Son of Man was coming, And He came up to the Ancient of Days And was presented before Him. (Dan 7:13 NAS)

Daniel clearly uses symbolism throughout much of the book.

Do the early Christians use symbolism also when writing of Jesus' return?

Well true, there seems to be a problem from a globe-earth perspective, but not so impossible from the actual Flat Earth perspective, with a little help from the Lord: "and their eyes shall be opened". After all, this will be That Day for those who been earnestly waiting for it, right?

[onewithhim]

I'm somewhat surprised that you are unfamiliar with passages in the Old and New Testaments referring to Jesus' co-rulers. These verses have been discussed quite a few times.

Daniel 7:13,14,18: 13 "I kept looking in the night visions, and behold, with the clouds of heaven one like a Son of Man was coming, and he came up to the Ancient of Days and was presented before Him.

You might as well say this is evidence for the Divine Right of Kings. It is obscure prose couched in obscurity.

There is no point in quoting Revelation at me since we can take whatever interpretation pleases us, and people do. When people wrap their speeches in symbols we cannot in all honesty claim we know for certain what these symbols mean.

I find the notion of Christ co-ruling to be an absurdity, as I said. Does he sit on his throne perpetually?

Just wondering if you read all of the verses in Daniel that I quoted.

[onewithhim]

Certain biblical authors talk of Christ returning from the sky: Acts and Paul.

Paul tells Christians that they will be caught up to meet him.


There is an obvious imaginative problem here: even if a figure should appear in the sky, that portion of sky will be visible from only so many miles. The number of people who could fly up to surround such a flying figure can only be so many; twenty, thirty?

At any rate, even during Paul's time people in Ephesus could not possibly see clouds in Thessalonia.


Did Paul believe that Jesus would literally return on clouds and therefore in one particular place in space? Or was Paul less interested in such literal details as he was in theological and apocalyptic precedents? Namely, Daniel's apocalypse, where

"I kept looking in the night visions, And behold, with the clouds of heaven One like a Son of Man was coming, And He came up to the Ancient of Days And was presented before Him. (Dan 7:13 NAS)

Daniel clearly uses symbolism throughout much of the book.

Do the early Christians use symbolism also when writing of Jesus' return?

Acts 1:11 tells us that Jesus will "come in the same manner as you have beheld him going into the sky." How was that? He was OBSCURED by the clouds. They couldn't see him any more.

When he returns it will be an event that he negotiates from heaven, therefore invisibly. Nations will "see" him with eyes of understanding. Jesus said that people can look at something but do not really "see" or, understand. "I speak to them in parables; because while seeing they do NOT see, and while hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand." (Matt.13:13, NASB) When he returns people will absolutely "see" that he has come to put an end to all wickedness. They will all understand, though they don't literally see him with their eyes.

Jesus' co-rulers will not be visible to anyone from the ground. When they are called to meet him in the air, they will be invisible, in spirit bodies, as Paul explained in I Corinthians 15: 40,42-53. There is no problem for Jesus to welcome any person from any part of the world.

.

The spirit is not corruptible, or perishable so according to your understanding, what would your quoted verses mean? especially verse 53?

1Corrinthians 15: 52 in an instant, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53 For the perishable must be clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. 54 When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come to pass: Death has been swallowed up in victory.

We don't HAVE a spirit being inside us that leaves us at death and goes somewhere else, to consciously keep living. "The dead are conscious of nothing." (Ecclesiastes 9:5) The bodies Paul talks about are physical bodies and spirit bodies---non-physical. Paul was explaining that when those early Christians died and then were resurrected they would CHANGE and no longer have their physical bodies, which are corruptible, but they would have spirit bodies that are imperishable. As such they will be able to live in heaven, where flesh cannot go. (I Corinth.15:50)