Jesus and his Father, forever apart?

[JehovahsWitness]

"angels in heaven always see the face of my Father in heaven" Matthew 18:10

Since, Jesus will spend eternity on the earth (or travelling back and forth between the spirit and the physical realm), but the bible indicates that angels that will spend eternity in heaven with The father (see Matthew 18:10 above) I have a question:


#1 Do you think Jesus will be jealous of the angels?

#2 Do you think Jesus will miss time he spent constantly at his Fathers right hand side before the earth even existed (John 1:1)?

#3 Could God not have found a way for Jesus to rule the earth while at the same time being with Him (YHWH) in heaven?

#4 Where will God live when he (God) is ruling afer Jesus finally hands back the kingdom to his Father and "all things are subject" to Him [YHWH/Jehovah]?






My question is directed of course at those that believe Jesus and his Father will NOT spend eternity together in heaven in the same way as they were in the beginning.

[JehovahsWitness]

But what I am saying is that it seems as if they, like so many other religious groups, tend to think of the separation in terms of distance in miles.

I think you misunderstood the point I am questioning here. In fact it is the exact opposite. The OP was inspired by posters that imply that Jesus had to be on the physical location of the earth to rule it, that God, has to literally descend onto this planet to be with us and that true unity with God can only be enjoyed by being in heaven. None of which I believe to be true. For me such conclusions imply that God and Jesus (and humans) has to literally be within the geographical perimeters to enjoy spiritual intimacy.

The whole point is that location is irrelevant to an infinite God, that his spirit has no limites and we humans (who are physical beings and are limited to operate within time and space) can indeed have a relationship with God (who is not) without God "moving" anywhere. That Jesus' authority can be exercised from heaven (which is a "spiritual realm") without the necessity of him literally leaving his Father to be on this planet.

If anyone is limiting God I think it is those that think He must literally live on Israeli soil to fulfill his purposes.

JW

[JehovahsWitness]

But what I am saying is that it seems as if they, like so many other religious groups, tend to think of the separation in terms of distance in miles, like if we were able to travel far enough through the universe in a spaceship we could find his place of dwelling.

That may be true of other religious groups but that is absolutely not true of Jehovah's Witnesses. We believe heaven to be a spiritual realm that cannot be accessed by physical travel but only crossing from one "dimension" if you like to another. It is not a matter of distance (which is a physical measurement). So no Jehovah's Witnesses do not believe that on the outreaches of the physical universe a physical being will encounter God; indeed the bible says "flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom"

But I know in my mind and heart that miles of distance only apply to the physical realm.

I have no idea where you got the idea that Jehovah's Witnesses believed otherwise.

Our separation from God is spiritual, not physical.

I repeat,: is there anything you have read or seen that implies that Jehovah's Witnesses believe otherwise? Indeed that is the point of the OP, since our "seperation" from God is not physical, the restoration of our unity with God doesn not have to be physical either. Neither God nor Jesus need to live on the earth for us to be spiritually united with them in paradise.

[JehovahsWitness]

The things pictured in the scriptures are illustrative of spiritual relationships. And that is something vastly different than occupying a specific location.

WHAT DO JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES BELIVE ABOUT HEAVEN?

I think I have made it clear in the three detailed posts above that Jehovah's Witnesses fully grasp the nature of a spiritual relationship and that heaven is in no way within the physical realm to be reached by traveling a distance in any direction.

That said there is what can be refered to as a spiritual realm where God lives. Notice what Jesus said in Matthew 18 verse 10 " I tell you that their angels in heaven always see the face of my Father in heaven." Humans cannot see God, that is evidently one difference. While the bible speaking of heavens being "above" is symbolically conveying that it is a "higher" more advanced, more powerful sphere of existence, the idea is also conveyed that those that live in heaven have an scope of vision that we humans on earth do not have.

Further, Jesus when he became a human, being spiritually and phsyically perfect, continued to enjoy an inimate relationship with God but he prayed to return to Jehovah's side. On the last night of his life as a human Jeus explained to his followers that he was "going" to the Father and that they could not "follow" him at that time. That he was "leaving" them in some sense to "be with" the the Father again. Obviously all that is meaningless unless being a human didn't represent any difference in where Jesus would literally be; and he that says "where" says location. I think it goes without saying Jesus wasn't simply saying I'll be right here on earth with you but invisible, it was evidently more than that... he was "leaving" in some sense; going back to be with his Father.

Since he could not be refering to a returning to a good spiritual relationship with his father via the removal of sin (Jesus never had a spiritually broken relationship with God, and never had sin) what did he mean he was "going" to the Father? Obviously it means that Jesus was about to cross from the physical to the spiritual realm and once again literally be in the presence of the person of God as are the faithful angels in heaven.

click on picture to enlarge


So while we do not want to confuse spiritual intimacy, relationship and oversight with physicality, we cannot dismiss the notion of God being in heaven and humans being on earth and that one (like Jesus) can "go" (implying displacement of some nature) from one realm to the other.



JW

Job 2:1-2 (KJV)
Again there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan came also among them to present himself before the Lord. And the Lord said unto Satan, From whence comest thou? And Satan answered the Lord, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.

[Left Site]

The things pictured in the scriptures are illustrative of spiritual relationships. And that is something vastly different than occupying a specific location.

Indeed that is the point, since our "seperation" from God is not physical, the restoration of our unity with God doesn not have to be physical either.

There is not doubt however that we humans are physical, that Jesus when he became a human, being spiritually and phsyically perfect, enjoyed an inimate relationship with God. That said however he prayed to return to Jehovah's side. He explained he was "going" to the Father and that they could not "follow" him at present. That he was "leaving" them in some sense to "be with" the the Father again.

Since he could not be refering to a returning to a good spiritual relationship with his father via the removal of sin (Jesus never had a spiritually broken relationship with God, and never had sin) what did he mean he was "going" to the Father? Obviously it means that Jesus was about to cross from the physical to the spiritual realm and once again literally be in the presence of the person of God as are the faithful angels in heaven.

So while we do not want to confuse spiritual intimacy, relationship and oversight with physicality, we cannot dismiss the notion of God being in heaven and humans being on earth and that one (like Jesus) can "go" (implying displacement of some nature).



JW

Job 2:1-2 (KJV)
Again there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan came also among them to present himself before the Lord. And the Lord said unto Satan, From whence comest thou? And Satan answered the Lord, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.

Wow, you explained that very well. Thank you.

No, it is not what I have read but the way I hear it spoken about. There in this last post I thought you explained your view of it very well. You used sound reasoning which I was able to finally understand.

I know you know these things so please understand that I am just trying to explain how I see it. Whether Jesus was traveling a huge distance away from them is not an issue for he would be gone from their sight. He had to speak of it in terms they could understand. To their minds and senses he was going away, so that is how he spoke of it, as going away to be with the Father. He was never meant to live in this fallen world permanently and not even any of us do that, for we eventually die to it.

But when we leave this world, if we are of those to be resurrected, surely God is not going to resurrect us just to have us wear corrupted flesh again?

[JehovahsWitness]

But when we leave this world, if we are of those to be resurrected, surely God is not going to resurrect us just to have us wear corrupted flesh again?

I think you must know we Jehovah's Witnesses believe in two kinds of resurrection; resurrection to heavenly life (humans that die and are bought back to life not as humans but as spirit beings to live in heaven with God and Jesus) and an earthly resurrection (like the 8 resurrections recorded in the bible where the human simply came back to life, still in a human body, to continue life physically on this planet earth).

The difference between the resurrections recorded in the bible and the future earthly resurrection being that the later will have the opportunity of being washed of Adamic sin to continue perfect life in perfect bodies for all eternity.


JW

[Left Site]

But when we leave this world, if we are of those to be resurrected, surely God is not going to resurrect us just to have us wear corrupted flesh again?

I think you must know we Jehovah's Witnesses believe in two kinds of resurrection; resurrection to heavenly life (humans that die and are bought back to life not as humans but as spirit beings to live in heaven with God and Jesus) and an earthly resurrection (like the 8 resurrections recorded in the bible where the human simply came back to life, still in a human body, to continue life physically on this planet earth).

The difference between the resurrections recorded in the bible and the future earthly resurrection being that the later will have the opportunity of being washed of Adamic sin to continue perfect life in perfect bodies for all eternity.


JW

Yes, I understand all of that. But what I am asking is if when we are resurrected to flesh again will it be perfect flesh like Adam had before he sinned?

But then it seems to me that we could not yet be fully returned to the image of the perfect Adam which Jesus paralleled to us, for we would not yet be made perfect in our spirit or spiritual man. That would surely take more time to achieve, especially if we were one of the resurrection of the unrighteous.

And if the above is true, then unless the 144,000 were yet present on this earth we would yet be spiritually separated from God by virtue of our need to continue on growing to spiritual perfection.

But if the 144,000 were right here on this earth, they would serve as priests providing us that connection.

[JehovahsWitness]

what I am asking is if when we are resurrected to flesh again will it be perfect flesh like Adam had before he sinned?

Eventually yes.

The bible indicates that the return to perfection "like Adam" (including our spirutal healing) will actually take 1000 years, since Revelation says "the rest of the dead - ie those that take part in the 2nd earthly resurrection - will not come back to life (perfect life) until the end of the 1000 years. But eventually humans will return to the spiritual and physical perfection we lost so long ago.

But then it seems to me that we could not yet be fully returned to the image of the perfect Adam which Jesus paralleled to us, for we would not yet be made perfect in our spirit or spiritual man. That would surely take more time to achieve, especially if we were one of the resurrection of the unrighteous.

That is correct. See above.

[JehovahsWitness]

And if the above is true, then unless the 144,000 were yet present on this earth we would yet be spiritually separated from God by virtue of our need to continue on growing to spiritual perfection.

I'm not sure I understand your point here, perhaps you can explain

We believe the 144,000 are resurrected to life in heaven just as Jesus was. Where Jesus is, they will be. They will no longer be human, they will be spirits like the angels are spirits.

The progress of the human (physical) part of the human family will to an extent be dependent on them (Jesus and the 144,000) because the bible speaks of them as being both kings and PRIESTS. Have you ever wondered what their function as priests will accomplish? As kings they will see to the administration of the government, ruling over all the territories of the earth and ensuring its smooth progress towards and earthly paradise. As priests they will oversee the spiritual healing of humanity through the benefits of the ransom.

... unless the 144,000 were yet present on this earth we would yet be spiritually separated from God [...] But if the 144,000 were right here on this earth, they would serve as priests providing us that connection.

I thought we'd agreed that physical location has NOTHING to do with spiritual restoration?

Was it not you that said...

Your spiritual senses have not expanded much beyond seeing only in terms of physical relationships [...] We live by spirit, let us walk by spirit.

So we need a physical relationship with the 144,000 in order to benefit from their work? Why are you here implying individuals must physically be within our geographical location in order to administer or oversee SPIRITUAL communion? In the light of what you yourself said, why would the 144,000 spirtual beings as they will be, need to be bound by distance and geographical location to the physical earth in order to fulfill their spiritual duties for the benefit of mankind?

Our separation from God is spiritual, not physical.

Exactly, what difference does it make where the 144,000 are located since the problem as you put it is not location but sin? We already know they will be with Jesus and we already know Jesus will be with God. Why should this pose any kind of problem when our relationship with God has nothing to do as you yourself said, with the physicality of location?



"we would yet be spiritually separated from God"

Well as we have been discussig, that separation is spiritual, a separation from full union with our maker due to our inherited imperfection and sinful nature. As you said it will logistically take some time to repair this (administer the full benefits of the ransom sacrifice) but the meek living on earth will enjoy continued blessings. Evil will be eliminated as of the first day after Harmageddon, the kingdom government will rule over all the earth. If we are not instantly with a snap of the finger made perfect spiritually , I don't think that's any reason to think that we will not from the very beginning feel God's protective care and blessing, after all, is that not the case to
a certain degree, right now?

Yes, FULL relationship will take time, but it will be a pleasure and an immense blessing to make such a spiritual journey. I think of it as the difference between the first day of marriage and the relationship 50 years down the road. The love is there from the first day but to fully know your partner more time is needed. A couple that have lived together 50 or 60 years have another, deeper kind of relationship. It doesn't mean that how they were in day one wasn't good, its just it can get so much better. I for one look forward to starting such a blessed journey with my maker, indeed I already have, its just that perfection (completion) is 1000 years or so down the line.


JW

[Left Site]

And if the above is true, then unless the 144,000 were yet present on this earth we would yet be spiritually separated from God by virtue of our need to continue on growing to spiritual perfection.

I'm not sure I understand your point here, perhaps you can explain

We believe the 144,000 are resurrected to life in heaven just as Jesus was. Where Jesus is, they will be. They will no longer be human, they will be spirits like the angels are spirits.

The progress of the human (physical) part of the human family will to an extent be dependent on them (Jesus and the 144,000) because the bible speaks of them as being both kings and PRIESTS. Have you ever wondered what their function as priests will accomplish? As kings they will see to the administration of the government, ruling over all the territories of the earth and ensuring its smooth progress towards and earthly paradise. As priests they will oversee the spiritual healing of humanity through the benefits of the ransom.

... unless the 144,000 were yet present on this earth we would yet be spiritually separated from God [...] But if the 144,000 were right here on this earth, they would serve as priests providing us that connection.

I thought we'd agreed that physical location has nothing to do with spiritual restoration? Was it not you that said...

Your spiritual senses have not expanded much beyond seeing only in terms of physical relationships [...] We live by spirit, let us walk by spirit.

So we need a physical relationship with the 144,000 in order to benefi from their work? Why are you here implying individuals must physically be within our geographical location in order to administer or oversee SPIRITUAL communion? In the light of what you yourself said, why would the 144,000 spirtual beings as they will be, need to be bound by distance and geographical location to the physical earth in order to fulfill their spiritual duties for the benefit of mankind?

Our separation from God is spiritual, not physical.

Exactly, what difference does it make where the 144,000 are located since the problem as you put it is not location but sin? We already know they will be with Jesus and we already know Jesus will be with God. Why should this pose any kind of problem when our relationship with God has nothing to do as you yourself said, with the physicality of location?



"we would yet be spiritually separated from God"

Well as we have been discussig, that separation is spiritual, a separation from full union with our maker due to our inherited imperfection and sinful nature. As you said it will logistically take some time to repair this (administer the full benefits of the ransom sacrifice) but the meek living on earth will enjoy continued blessings. Evil will be eliminated as of the first day after Harmageddon, the kingdom government will rule over all the earth. If we are not instantly with a snap of the finger made perfect spiritually , I don't think that's any reason to think that we will not from the very beginning feel God's protective care and blessing and enjoy a relationship with him.

After all, is that not the case right now? Yes, FULL relationship will take time, but it will be a pleasure and an immense blessing to make such a spiritual journey. I for one look forward to starting it, even if perfection (completion) is 1000 years or so down the line.


JW

I will need more time to ponder your response here and so I reserve the right to post additional comments again later.

For the moment I want to point out that 1 Timothy 6:16 says of Jesus that he dwells in unapproachable light and that no man can see him. (or something like that) But my point is that if the 144,000 go to be with him no man will be able to see them either. And as closely as you look to your governing body of elect ones, how will we communicate with them then?

Evidently we won't be able to see them when they are living in unapproachable light with Christ. We don't have the special born again relationship blessing with it's advance token of the holy spirit to help us. We will yet be unholy until the end of the thousand years when the rest of the dead finally are brought to life (spiritually speaking).

If the 144,000 are gone from earth our imperfection and lack of gifts dooms us it seems.

The point is not about location. It is about whether or not God is really going to take a group of humans who he originally purposed would inhabit this earth and make them angels. After all, they couldn't be men and be literally where Christ is because of what 1 Timothy 6:16 says.

[JehovahsWitness]

If the 144,000 are gone from earth our imperfection and lack of gifts dooms us it seems.

So contrary to everything you have posted, mankind's salvation is dependent on location? I don't mean to put words in your mouth, and I hear you saying it "isn't about location" but how else am I to understand your statement that if the 144,000 are {quote} "gone from the earth" {end quote} the Messianic promises (notably that about guiding mankind back to spiritual union with God) cannot be fulfilled.

How else am I to understand your objection but that the spiritual blessings of the millenium can only be achieved with the 144,00 "on" (meaning I presume in the physical locality of because that's what the word "on" means) the earth? Is that not just another way of saying that God cannot repair or spiritual rift with Him or remove imperfection based on the ransom (using whoever and whatever he chooses) in the absense of physical geographical placement of certain individuals? In short they have to be on the earth for the whole thing to work (even though you ourself have said our problem has nothing to do with location).

No offense intended but what am I missing?