What Fraction of People Will Make it to Heaven?

[jgh7]

I've read in the bible that many will not enter the gates of Heaven. I was wondering what others think about this statistically speaking. So that's what this poll is for. If you have some verses or ideas backing up your opinion, feel free to give them.

[JehovahsWitness]

I have to beg your pardon concerning the busy-body women being literal women. I learned that from your JW organization. And after thoroughly dissecting it, I decided they were right.

I encourage you to check that out with your governing body.

Yes, I agree. I'm not sure they shed any light on the matter of Revelation though...

Have you read much of our literature?


HW


Who goes to heaven?
https://www.jw.org/en/bible-teachings/q ... to-heaven/

[onewithhim]

[Replying to post 1 by jgh7]

I'm one of Jehovah's Witnesses, we believe only 144,000 of the humans that have ever lived will go to heaven (Rev 14:1)

Further reading
https://www.jw.org/en/publications/maga ... to-heaven/

RESPONSE:

Perhaps you overlooked Revelation 7:9


After this I saw four angels standing at the four corners of the earth,* holding back the four winds of the earth so that no wind could blow on land or sea or against any tree.a
2
Then I saw another angel come up from the East,* holding the seal of the living God. He cried out in a loud voice to the four angels who were given power to damage the land and the sea,
3
“Do not damage the land or the sea or the trees until we put the seal on the foreheads of the servants of our God.�b
4
I heard the number of those who had been marked with the seal, one hundred and forty-four thousand marked* from every tribe of the Israelites:c
5
twelve thousand were marked from the tribe of Judah,* twelve thousand from the tribe of Reuben, twelve thousand from the tribe of Gad,
6
twelve thousand from the tribe of Asher, twelve thousand from the tribe of Naphtali, twelve thousand from the tribe of Manasseh,
7
twelve thousand from the tribe of Simeon, twelve thousand from the tribe of Levi, twelve thousand from the tribe of Issachar,
8
twelve thousand from the tribe of Zebulun, twelve thousand from the tribe of Joseph, and twelve thousand were marked from the tribe of Benjamin.

Triumph of the Elect.
9
After this I had a vision of a great multitude, which no one could count, from every nation, race, people, and tongue. They stood before the throne and before the Lamb, wearing white robes and holding palm branches* in their hands.

Nobody overlooked Revelation 7. Most of Revelation is symbolic of something. The 144,000 in this chapter are symbolized by the 12 tribes of Israel, and they are not literal for a couple of reasons. (1) The tribes are not the same as the ones listed in the Torah, and (2) physical Israel became insignificant when they rejected the Son of God. Spiritual Israel has taken its place, and after the rejection of Jesus when the "Israel of God" is mentioned in the Scriptures, it refers to the congregation of people who put their faith in what Christ did.

Perhaps you have overlooked Galatians 3:26-29; 4:24=26; 6:14-16.

"For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus....There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's descendants, heirs according to promise." (Gal.3:26,28,29, NASB)

Paul says plainly that it doesn't matter anymore if a person is a physical Jew or not. All of the heirs of God are those that have faith in Jesus. The Jerusalem that now matters is the "Jerusalem above." (Galatians 4:24-26)

The true "Israel of God" is now "those who walk by this rule," boasting, so to speak, in the "cross of our Lord Jesus Christ." (Gal. 6:14-16, NASB)


Therefore, the 144,000 from the 12 tribes of Israel is not about physical, natural Israel. It's about the true "Israel of God," Christ's followers. You might polish up your gathering of information methods.


And, BTW, you high-lighted verse 9. You probably realize that it speaks of a different group than the 144,000, that come out of the Great Tribulation. It is faith-strengthening to know that Jesus' followers will be protected during the G.T. and come out on the other side!

[onewithhim]

[Replying to post 5 by polonius.advice]

No I didn't overlook it - I probably simply interpret it differently to you. Revelation provides hours of endless fun with alternative interpretations, indeed I don't think I've ever met two (non-witness) people that have the same interpretation of Revelation.

Respect,

JW

QUESTION: How much of the Book of Revelation or the Bible, in general, do you consider to be "endless fun"? If what you say is true, doesn't this demolish your quotes of scripture to prove your arguments?

JW Posted:

I'm one of Jehovah's Witnesses, we believe only 144,000 of the humans that have ever lived will go to heaven (Rev 14:1).

Rev 14:1 “Then I looked and there was the Lamb standing on Mount Zion,* and with him a hundred and forty-four thousand who had his name and his Father’s name written on their foreheads.�

RESPONSE:
Only 144,000 human will go to heaven? It looks like the Jehovah Witnesses are wrong, doesn’t it?

Revelation 7:9 Triumph of the Elect.

9 After this I had a vision of a great multitude, which no one could count, from every nation, race, people, and tongue. They stood before the throne and before the Lamb, wearing white robes and holding palm branches* in their hands.

From https://dgcoy.me/2011/03/27/revelation-fact-or-fiction/

"Recently I was watching MSNBC’s Lawrence O’Donnell on his show, The Last Word, when, in responding to a rival TV host who claimed that the Japanese earthquake and tsunami were evidence of the last days as depicted in the book of Revelation, he retorted, “The book of Revelation is a work of fiction that describes how a truly vicious God would bring about the end of the world. No half-smart religious person actually believes the book of Revelation anymore. Those people are certain that their God would never turn into a malicious torturer and mass murderer beyond Hitler’s wildest dreams.�

How are JWs wrong about 144,000 going to heaven? The "great multitude" of Rev.7:9 is explained by the angel to be "the ones that come out of the great tribulation..." (verse 14). To "come out" of something you have to have been IN it in the first place. That great multitude remains on the earth, experiences the G.T., and then enters the relief of Christ's Millennial Reign....Paradise on Earth.

What kind of malarkey is that "The Last Word" Lawrence O"Donnell spewing out? God is not a "malicious torturer and mass murderer." The lake of fire is symbolic of annihilation, and is not a literal place of torture. Beyond that, the only killing that God will be responsible for is the elimination of all incorrigibly evil people who would forever (if they were allowed to live) be making life miserable for other people. It is merciful of God to do away with them so that good people can live in peace. Tell me---why should those wicked people who will never change be allowed to remain among the good people?

[/u][/b]

[Donray]

Where is option to select no one?????

[Divine Insight]

Why are the theists totally ignoring the problem that 144,000 un-defiled (i.e. purely righteous)

As far as I know, you are the only person defining undefiled as purely righteous (whatever that means), when the text clearly states they did not defile themselves with women.

But the argument was just made that this was not to be taken as literal women.

people earning their way into heaven via their own choice to never sin

Did not defile themselves with women does not mean that they never sin. Being blameless would be with regard to not defiling themselves with women; and even if no lie is found in their mouths meant no lie on any matter, ever, that still would not mean that they have never sinned.

What makes them so special from anyone else then?

Also, why would this God need 144,000 "rulers" in heaven?

It would be the 144 000 (from 12 tribes of Israel) along with the great multitude that no one could count, who reign with Christ upon the earth for a thousand years. Christ loves them and so shares His reign with them.

This is the time that the sheep and the goats are being separated, the sheep (subjects of the Kingdom) entering into the Kingdom.

Why would anyone need to reign over the sheep? Are these sheep potentially criminal?

And why would an omnipotent God need help with that? What happened to his angels?

Who are they going to be ruling over? And why are they even necessary? Is heaven a democracy where God needs to have a huge congress to bicker between themselves to make legislation? I thought in this religion God himself is the ultimate lawmaker?

Who says that they are bickering? They are serving, helping... in truth and with mercy.

Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

And you have totally avoided the question of exactly what it is they they are "helping" with.

If they are not helping to make laws, then what are they doing?

Will they be police who help to enforce the laws? And if so, who is expected to be breaking these laws during this period of time?

Will they be "judges", and if so why is it that a God who knows what's in the hearts and minds of men would need 144,000 judges to determine who is guilty?

The question of why God will even need these people, or who they will supposedly reign over, has never been answered as far as I can see.

[otseng]

You come across in multiple posts as demeaning and sarcastic. I'm done talking with you.

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[tam]

Peace to you DI,

Why are the theists totally ignoring the problem that 144,000 un-defiled (i.e. purely righteous)

As far as I know, you are the only person defining undefiled as purely righteous (whatever that means), when the text clearly states they did not defile themselves with women.

But the argument was just made that this was not to be taken as literal women.

Yes, and?

people earning their way into heaven via their own choice to never sin

Did not defile themselves with women does not mean that they never sin. Being blameless would be with regard to not defiling themselves with women; and even if no lie is found in their mouths meant no lie on any matter, ever, that still would not mean that they have never sinned.

What makes them so special from anyone else then?

These are 144 000 positions - a remnant of those descended from Israel (literal Israel) - that has been reserved by God, out of love for Abraham; due to the promises made to Abraham, Isaac, Israel.

So that at least 144 000 members of Israel - 12 000 from each of those 12 tribes - is guaranteed a place in the Bride.

(they need only have some blood in them from any of those twelve tribes, to be literal Israel. God knows where every drop of blood of Israel is in this world)


Others descended from Israel may also be in the Bride, as part of the great multitude which is made up of people from EVERY tribe, nation, people and tongue. But these 144 000 positions are specifically reserved for those who are descended (by blood) from Israel, and sealed.

Revelation 7:2-9

Then I saw another angel coming up from the east, having the seal of the living God. He called out in a loud voice to the four angels who had been given power to harm the land and the sea: “Do not harm the land or the sea or the trees until we put a seal on the foreheads of the servants of our God.� Then I heard the number of those who were sealed: 144,000 from all the tribes of Israel.

From the tribe of Judah 12,000 were sealed,
from the tribe of Reuben 12,000,
from the tribe of Gad 12,000,
from the tribe of Asher 12,000,
from the tribe of Naphtali 12,000,
from the tribe of Manasseh 12,000,
from the tribe of Simeon 12,000,
from the tribe of Levi 12,000,
from the tribe of Issachar 12,000,
from the tribe of Zebulun 12,000,
from the tribe of Joseph 12,000,
from the tribe of Benjamin 12,000.


After this I looked, and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and before the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and were holding palm branches in their hands.

Also, why would this God need 144,000 "rulers" in heaven?

It would be the 144 000 (from 12 tribes of Israel) along with the great multitude that no one could count, who reign with Christ upon the earth for a thousand years. Christ loves them and so shares His reign with them.

This is the time that the sheep and the goats are being separated, the sheep (subjects of the Kingdom) entering into the Kingdom.

Why would anyone need to reign over the sheep? Are these sheep potentially criminal?

And why would an omnipotent God need help with that? What happened to his angels?

Angels are fellow servants with us.

God loves His Son and bestowed a Kingdom upon Him. That Son loves those who belong to Him, who stayed with Him, who took up their cross and followed Him. He shares His Kingdom with them. That does not mean that He NEEDS to share His Kingdom or His reign with them.

Who are they going to be ruling over? And why are they even necessary? Is heaven a democracy where God needs to have a huge congress to bicker between themselves to make legislation? I thought in this religion God himself is the ultimate lawmaker?

Who says that they are bickering? They are serving, helping... in truth and with mercy.

Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

And you have totally avoided the question of exactly what it is they they are "helping" with.

If they are not helping to make laws, then what are they doing?

SERVING.

You have an entire nation of people entering the Kingdom, from all walks of life. Do you not think some of them might like some assistance at some time, even if just at the start, in this new Kingdom?

We reign with Christ a thousand years, during the separation of the sheep and the goats.


Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

[Left Site]

[Replying to post 5 by polonius.advice]

No I didn't overlook it - I probably simply interpret it differently to you. Revelation provides hours of endless fun with alternative interpretations, indeed I don't think I've ever met two (non-witness) people that have the same interpretation of Revelation.

Respect,

JW

QUESTION: How much of the Book of Revelation or the Bible, in general, do you consider to be "endless fun"? If what you say is true, doesn't this demolish your quotes of scripture to prove your arguments?

JW Posted:

I'm one of Jehovah's Witnesses, we believe only 144,000 of the humans that have ever lived will go to heaven (Rev 14:1).

Rev 14:1 “Then I looked and there was the Lamb standing on Mount Zion,* and with him a hundred and forty-four thousand who had his name and his Father’s name written on their foreheads.�

RESPONSE:
Only 144,000 human will go to heaven? It looks like the Jehovah Witnesses are wrong, doesn’t it?

Revelation 7:9 Triumph of the Elect.

9 After this I had a vision of a great multitude, which no one could count, from every nation, race, people, and tongue. They stood before the throne and before the Lamb, wearing white robes and holding palm branches* in their hands.

From https://dgcoy.me/2011/03/27/revelation-fact-or-fiction/

"Recently I was watching MSNBC’s Lawrence O’Donnell on his show, The Last Word, when, in responding to a rival TV host who claimed that the Japanese earthquake and tsunami were evidence of the last days as depicted in the book of Revelation, he retorted, “The book of Revelation is a work of fiction that describes how a truly vicious God would bring about the end of the world. No half-smart religious person actually believes the book of Revelation anymore. Those people are certain that their God would never turn into a malicious torturer and mass murderer beyond Hitler’s wildest dreams.�

How are JWs wrong about 144,000 going to heaven? The "great multitude" of Rev.7:9 is explained by the angel to be "the ones that come out of the great tribulation..." (verse 14). To "come out" of something you have to have been IN it in the first place. That great multitude remains on the earth, experiences the G.T., and then enters the relief of Christ's Millennial Reign....Paradise on Earth.

What kind of malarkey is that "The Last Word" Lawrence O"Donnell spewing out? God is not a "malicious torturer and mass murderer." The lake of fire is symbolic of annihilation, and is not a literal place of torture. Beyond that, the only killing that God will be responsible for is the elimination of all incorrigibly evil people who would forever (if they were allowed to live) be making life miserable for other people. It is merciful of God to do away with them so that good people can live in peace. Tell me---why should those wicked people who will never change be allowed to remain among the good people?

[/u][/b]

The question which keeps pestering the back of my mind is that Paul seems to have quite clearly stated that for death to be swallowed up forever that which is corruptible must put on incorruption and that which is mortal must put on immortality (1 Corinthians 15:53-54).

If not all who live do that then it logically follows that death cannot be swallowed up for ever except for a preferential few, the 144,000.

How can you look past that fact?

Edit: Death must be swallowed up by life. (2 Corinthians 5: 4)


2 Corinthians 5: 1 “For we know that if our earthly house, this tent, should be dissolved, we are to have a building from God, [which contrasts the present house of God made by hands]> a house not made with hands, everlasting in the heavens.�

How can we ignore that clear contrast? Our physical bodies were not made with hands, so it cannot be speaking about them. IMHO, if we are really interested in truth we must cease ignoring these little details.

It seems clear from texts like Romans 15:20 and 1 Corinthians 3: 6-12 that God used the hands of humans to build the house which is called �the church� or, more appropriately, “the congregation of God, the body of Christ� which we in this world are able to see. But where there is a physical body there is also a spiritual body according to 1 Corinthians 15:44. And I believe we catch a sort of fore-glimpse of that spiritual body at Hebrews 12: 22-23.

If you want to help me see that I am wrong you will have to explain the point of Paul’s making that comparison at 2 Corinthians 5: 1, because Paul spoke but valueless wasted words there if “not made with hands� has nothing it contrasts with.

[JehovahsWitness]

The question which keeps pestering the back of my mind is that Paul seems to have quite clearly stated that for death to be swallowed up forever that which is corruptible must put on incorruption and that which is mortal must put on immortality (1 Corinthians 15:53-54).

If not all who live do that then it logically follows that death cannot be swallowed up for ever except for a preferential few, the 144,000.

By saying death will be "swallowed up forever", he means that adamic death will be eliminated, ie eventually, those judged as righteous will be rewarded with eternal life (immortality for those the 144,000) everlasting life for those humans in paradise.

[Left Site]

The question which keeps pestering the back of my mind is that Paul seems to have quite clearly stated that for death to be swallowed up forever that which is corruptible must put on incorruption and that which is mortal must put on immortality (1 Corinthians 15:53-54).

If not all who live do that then it logically follows that death cannot be swallowed up for ever except for a preferential few, the 144,000.

By saying death will be "swallowed up forever", he means that adamic death will be eliminated, ie eventually, those judged as righteous will be rewarded with eternal life (immortality for those the 144,000) everlasting life for those humans in paradise.

***By saying death will be "swallowed up forever", he means that adamic death will be eliminated, ie eventually, those judged as righteous will be rewarded with eternal life (immortality for those the 144,000) everlasting life for those humans in paradise.

That is the point. It seems that you are only considering half of the equation, because 1st Corinthians 15:53-54 seem to say that *the corruptible putting on incorruption* <<<and>>> *this which is mortal putting on immortality* are both needed before a person can be said to have defeated adimic death.

Pondering 1st Corinthians 15: 51-54
51 Look! I tell YOU a sacred secret: We shall not all fall asleep [in the death which is due to adamic sin, but we shall all be changed,
52 ............
53 For this which is the corruptible body we received of Adam’s sin must put on incorruption, and this which is made mortal by the punishment for sin must put on immortality.
54 But when [this which is corruptible puts on incorruption <<<and>>> this which is mortal puts on immortality], then the saying will take place that is written: “Death is swallowed up forever.�