What Fraction of People Will Make it to Heaven?

[jgh7]

I've read in the bible that many will not enter the gates of Heaven. I was wondering what others think about this statistically speaking. So that's what this poll is for. If you have some verses or ideas backing up your opinion, feel free to give them.

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 69 by BusB]

EPI: Over On or Upon?

While the Greek word "epi" basically means "on" or "upon" in terms of spatial relation and is the words basic meaning, regarding Revelation 5:10, Young's Intermediate New Testament Greek grammar, p 98 explains that "EPI with any of its cases can [also] express the object of one's control, authority, or rule." Since the verb in Revelation 5:10 basileuousin ("we shall be reigning") is specifically concerned with authority over others, the context supports the conclusion that "epi" here is not speaking of location but is used in the figurative sense indicative of the compass of that authority/rulership.

Interestingly, The Commentary Critical and Explanatory on the Whole Bible of Jamieson, Fausset and Brown states that translating the verse as:

".. "reign over the earth" (Greek, "epi tees gees"), [...] is justified by the Greek (Septuagint, Judges 9:8, Matthew 2:22). The elders, though ruling over the earth, shall not necessarily (according to this passage) remain on the earth...."

Thus a number of bible translations read as follows:

Aramaic Bible in Plain English
And you have made them a Kingdom, Priests and Kings to our God, and they shall reign over The Earth.

Darby Bible Translation
and made them to our God kings and priests; and they shall reign over the earth.

Weymouth New Testament
And hast formed them into a Kingdom to be priests to our God, And they reign over the earth."

New World Translation
and you made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God, and they are to rule as kings over the earth.

CONCLUSION The context of the use of the Greek word "epi" in Revelation 5:10 is calling attention, not to the location of the rulers, but to the area over which they exercise authority. Thus while in this figurative use, the verse does not shed light on where the kings will be*, it reasonably cannot be used to indicate that they will necessarily be on the earth







*NOTE: If the verse was speaking of "over" in terms of location (rather than authority), then another Greek word (huber) would be used. Jehovah's Witnesses conclude that the Kingdom is however located in heaven not from Revelation 5:10 (which speaks about the scope of authority) but, as The Watchtower, December 1st, 1974 p. 736 states from "... the rest of the Scriptures, which reveal that Gods kingdom by Christ is heavenly and that Jesus associate rulers are promised heavenly life."Luke 22:29, 30; John 14:2, 3; 1 Cor. 15:50-54." {end quote}

[Left Site]

[Replying to post 69 by BusB]

EPI: Over On or Upon?

While the Greek word "epi" is translated in Revelation 5:10 as "on" or "upon" (which can be understood in terms of spatial relation and is the words basic meaning and can be found translated as such in numerous scriptures), Young's Intermediate New Testament Greek grammar, p 98 explains that "EPI with any of its cases can [also] express the object of one's control, authority, or rule." Since the verb in Revelation 5:10 basileuousin ("we shall be reigning") is specifically concerned with authority over others, the context supports the conclusion that "epi" here is not speaking of location but is used in the figurative sense indicative of the compass of that authority/rulership.

Interestingly, The Commentary Critical and Explanatory on the Whole Bible of Jamieson, Fausset and Brown states that translating the verse as:

".. "reign over the earth" (Greek, "epi tees gees"), [...] is justified by the Greek (Septuagint, Judges 9:8, Matthew 2:22). The elders, though ruling over the earth, shall not necessarily (according to this passage) remain on the earth...."

Thus a number of bible translations read as follows:

Aramaic Bible in Plain English
And you have made them a Kingdom, Priests and Kings to our God, and they shall reign over The Earth.

Darby Bible Translation
and made them to our God kings and priests; and they shall reign over the earth.

Weymouth New Testament
And hast formed them into a Kingdom to be priests to our God, And they reign over the earth."

New World Translation
and you made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God, and they are to rule as kings over the earth.

CONCLUSION The context of the use of the Greek word "epi" in Revelation 5:10 is calling attention, not to the location of the rulers, but to the area over which they exercise authority. Thus while in this figurative use, the verse does not shed light on where the kings will be*, it reasonably cannot be used to indicate that they will necessarily be on the earth







*NOTE: If the verse was speaking of "over" in terms of location (rather than authority), then another Greek word (huber) would be used. Jehovah's Witnesses conclude that the Kingdom is however located in heaven not from Revelation 5:10 (which speaks about the scope of authority) but, as The Watchtower, December 1st, 1974 p. 736 states from "... the rest of the Scriptures, which reveal that Gods kingdom by Christ is heavenly and that Jesus associate rulers are promised heavenly life."Luke 22:29, 30; John 14:2, 3; 1 Cor. 15:50-54." {end quote}

You stated some of the very things I had written down in my notes in anticipation of my simplified explanation not being enough, like what you said about "huber."

I have not been trying to say that Rev 5:10 proves they are physically yet on earth. I have been trying to say what you just posted.

I only posted that verse to get a response from you and onewithhim, being as many a Witness have told me that verse does indicate they are in heaven.

So that is out of the way now and we know we cannot depend upon that verse to prove where they will live.

[JehovahsWitness]

Are you aware that for many years Jehovahs Witnesses taught about a symbolic ruling heavens wherein earths kings are pictured as sitting?

I don't even know what this means, can you provide a reference please?

If that has changed it would have to be only recently and I am not aware of it changing.

Ditto.


JW

[Left Site]

Are you aware that for many years Jehovahs Witnesses taught about a symbolic ruling heavens wherein earths kings are pictured as sitting?

I don't even know what this means, can you provide a reference please?

If that has changed it would have to be only recently and I am not aware of it changing.

Ditto.


JW

If my memory isn't failing me, you can find it discussed under the topic, "Heaven", in 'Insight On The Scriptures.'

I seem to recall something on it in the 1953 'Making Sure Of All Things' and 'Reasoning On the Scriptures."

I have read so very many publications that I may have them swapped in my mind. But I will look it up and let you know.

[JehovahsWitness]

I only posted that verse to get a response from you and onewithhim, being as many a Witness have told me that verse does indicate they are in heaven.

I cannot confirm what you say about other witnesses I can only comment on what I see posted here. You did not post the scripture at all, onewithhim did, and you accused her of using the verse out of context with the Greek, which she did not ( post 68 by onewithhim)

[JehovahsWitness]

Are you aware that for many years Jehovahs Witnesses taught about a symbolic ruling heavens wherein earths kings are pictured as sitting?

I don't even know what this means, can you provide a reference please?

If that has changed it would have to be only recently and I am not aware of it changing.

Ditto.


JW

If my memory isn't failing me, you can find it discussed under the topic, "Heaven", in 'Insight On The Scriptures.'

I seem to recall something on it in the 1953 'Making Sure Of All Things' and 'Reasoning On the Scriptures."

I have read so very many publications that I may have them swapped in my mind. But I will look it up and let you know.

I'm not going to plough through all that to find something that could possibly support your wording that I don't even understand. Do you have any idea how much information you have just pointed me to? That would take me weeks. Can you be more specific? Or at least explain better what you understood our teachings was so I can tell you whether you are mistaken or not.

[Left Site]

I only posted that verse to get a response from you and onewithhim, being as many a Witness have told me that verse does indicate they are in heaven.

I cannot confirm what you say about other witnesses I can only comment on what I see posted here. You did not post the scripture at all, onewithhim did, and you accused her of using the verse out of context with the Greek, which she did not.

I'll review that and if an appology is order, I will issue her one.

It is in the Insight Volume under Heaven:

(quote)Representing Rulership. We have seen that the heavens can refer to Jehovah God in his sovereign position. Thus, when Daniel told Nebuchadnezzar that the experience the Babylonian emperor was due to have would make him know that the heavens are ruling, it meant the same as knowing that the Most High is Ruler in the kingdom of mankind."Da 4:25, 26.

However, aside from its reference to the Supreme Sovereign, the term heavens can also refer to other ruling powers that are exalted or lifted up above their subject peoples. The very dynasty of Babylonian kings that Nebuchadnezzar represented is described at Isaiah 14:12 as being starlike, a shining one, son of the dawn. By the conquest of Jerusalem in 607 B.C.E., that Babylonian dynasty lifted its throne above the stars of God, these stars evidently referring to the Davidic line of Judean kings (even as the Heir to the Davidic throne, Christ Jesus, is called the bright morning star at Re 22:16; compare Nu 24:17). By its overthrow of the divinely authorized Davidic throne, the Babylonian dynasty, in effect, exalted itself heaven high. (Isa 14:13, 14) This lofty grandeur and far-reaching dominion were also represented in Nebuchadnezzars dream by a symbolic tree with its height reaching the heavens."Da 4:20-22. (end of quote)

But I have also read more detail in other pubs.

[JehovahsWitness]

Representing Rulership. We have seen that the heavens can refer to Jehovah God in his sovereign position. [...] aside from its reference to the Supreme Sovereign, the term heavens can also refer to other ruling powers that are exalted or lifted up above their subject peoples.

source
https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1200001949#h=17

Are you aware that for many years Jehovahs Witnesses taught about a symbolic ruling heavens wherein earths kings are pictured as sitting?

Okay so what you meant was that ...

Jehovah's Witnesses teach (teach now and have for a long time) that "the heavens" can refer literally to the spirit realm or symbolically to God's (or other people's) rulership whether exercised on the earth or from the spirit realm.

Yes, all Jehovah's Witnesses know that the word "heaven[s]" can be take to be literally or symbolical; the bible Encylopedia "Insight on the Scriptures" lists no less than seven different ways the word "heaven" is used in scripture. We all believe however that the Kingdom Government of 144,000 rulers will literally be in the spiritual realm where angels live.


Was there a reason why you asked?



JW

[Left Site]

Representing Rulership. We have seen that the heavens can refer to Jehovah God in his sovereign position. [...] aside from its reference to the Supreme Sovereign, the term heavens can also refer to other ruling powers that are exalted or lifted up above their subject peoples.

source
https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1200001949#h=17

Are you aware that for many years Jehovahs Witnesses taught about a symbolic ruling heavens wherein earths kings are pictured as sitting?

Okay so what you meant was that ...

Jehovah's Witnesses teach (teach now and have for a long time) that "the heavens" can refer literally to the spirit realm or symbolically to God's (or other people's) rulership whether exercised on the earth or from the spirit realm.

Yes, all Jehovah's Witnesses know that the word "heaven[s]" can be take to be literally or symbolical. We all believe that the Kingdom Government of 144,000 rulers will literally be in the spiritual realm where angels live.


Was there a reason why you asked?



JW

I, too, long believed the 144.000 go to live in heaven. Note that I said, "believed", past tense. I believe that when there is another idea which proves to my mind and heart to be better supported in Scripture, that I would be playing false to Jehovah and to his spirit if I refused to see it.

As I said at least once before, I expect we will continue to grow and some of our beliefs will be changed. We have a history of that and that is not a bad thing. But many are afraid of change, as if they feel it would crash their faith in the Witnesses being God's organization. If searching for truth were a business, that fear would be called a conflict of interest.

[Left Site]

I only posted that verse to get a response from you and onewithhim, being as many a Witness have told me that verse does indicate they are in heaven.

You did not post the scripture at all, onewithhim did, and you accused her of using the verse out of context with the Greek, which she did not ( post 68 by onewithhim)

Onewithhim was replying in post #68 to my having posted Revelation 5:10 at the very end of my post #67.

I was not saying she was failing to keep true to the grammar in both English and Greek for how the Greek word "epi" was translated. I plainly said it was acceptable to translate the genitive case "epi" as "over."

I was commenting on the fact that the belief that the 144,000 live in heaven cannot be attached to that verse apart from violating the grammar in both English and Greek. The same holds true when one uses it to try to prove the 144,000 will live on earth. But the point is that it does not matter whether we translate it as "upon" or "over." The same idea can be drawn from both as to the jurisdictional area of their reign. So why bother to insist it must be translated as "over" unless you do think it proves they go to live in heaven?

I don't see anything about it that ought to have been offensive. However, I certainly do apologize to her if she was offended. That was certainly not my intentions.

I think what is happening is summed up in the fact that it is not easy for anyone to find a religious conviction is wrong. But that is our individual test which we must pass. No one will make it just by virtue of being on a membership role with an organization. Our allegiance first and foremost is to God..