The principle of atonement

[Checkpoint]

Or is it contrary to it?

A number of questions may be asked and answered on a thread like this.

For example:

What is the principle of atonement?

What part does atonement play in scripture, and in the old and new covenants?

How can we know what does and does not reflect the character [and ways] of God?

[onewithhim]

[Replying to post 78 by Justin108]

That is why Jesus stepped up to the plate and cancelled out all of mankind's debt. We all inherited Adam's sin because of the principles of biology, and because God knows that we aren't responsible for it, He made a way out for our sin-debt to be paid off by someone who is Adam's equal. Why do you complain about it? It's a done deal! Just accept it and go ahead with your life, or don't accept it. It's up to you. Why keep lamenting about God not doing things the way you think they should have been done?

.

[Justin108]

That is why Jesus stepped up to the plate and cancelled out all of mankind's debt

If God didn't design such a nonsensical legalistic system, Jesus wouldn't have to "step up to the plate". If God's system was perfect, it wouldn't have needed Jesus to fix his mess

We all inherited Adam's sin because of the principles of biology

God designed the principles of biology. If God wanted to design a fair system where we are all punished in accordance with out own sin rather than the sins of our father, he could have.

and because God knows that we aren't responsible for it, He made a way out

Why are we in this mess in the first place?? God designed a terrible system in which we end up suffering for the sins of our father. The fact that God made a "way out" does not change the fact that his system is messed up to begin with.

Suppose I designed an airplane that starts falling apart mid-air, would the fact that I also designed a parachute that gets you out of that mess excuse me from the fact that I designed a terrible airplane? Jesus is the parachute that gets us out of this mess, but if God designed a decent airplane to begin with, the parachute would not be needed. If God designed a biological system that does not transfer sin from one generation to the next, Jesus would not be needed to fix God's mess.

[onewithhim]

That is why Jesus stepped up to the plate and cancelled out all of mankind's debt

If God didn't design such a nonsensical legalistic system, Jesus wouldn't have to "step up to the plate". If God's system was perfect, it wouldn't have needed Jesus to fix his mess

Justin, you are dissatisfied with the way God does things, and that's your prerogative as a thinking human being, but your dissatisfaction doesn't mean that God is wrong or that He is going to change things regarding His standards. What is it going to accomplish by saying to our Maker, "I don't like the way you made stuff"? He has certain ways of doing things, and He must be right because everything He has made is perfect and beautiful except where man has stepped in and screwed things up.

All Adam had to do was appreciate and love Jehovah, and demonstrate that love by acquiescing to His simple rules (which God has the right to make). "Leave that one tree alone," God says. Adam in effect told Jehovah to take a hike, and he and Eve took fruit from the tree that they had no business taking.

Then, staying on the original course, Jehovah showed mercy by allowing Adam's children to be born rather than wiping out Adam's lineage completely. The problem that you are finding most difficult is that Jehovah kept to His rules of Biology that say that the children inherit the DNA of their parents. Adam's DNA wasn't perfect anymore, since his constitution was changed so that now he would die. His now defective geneology would be passed on to his offspring. It's just a fact of science.

What is your problem with that? Is it that you think God should not have given Adam and Eve the privilege of showing their love for Him by obediently leaving His tree alone? Or you think that God should not have followed through with the consequences of their disobedience? Or is it that you think He should have wiped Adam out and started over? Or maybe it's just that you don't like rules at all.

.

[Justin108]

That is why Jesus stepped up to the plate and cancelled out all of mankind's debt

If God didn't design such a nonsensical legalistic system, Jesus wouldn't have to "step up to the plate". If God's system was perfect, it wouldn't have needed Jesus to fix his mess

Justin, you are dissatisfied with the way God does things, and that's your prerogative as a thinking human being

Ok so you have no actual rebuttals so you opt for "well that's your just opinion".

1. Jesus came to earth to solve a problem
- Is this a fact or an opinion? (assuming for argument sake that Christianity is true)

2. This problem could logically have been avoided had God designed our biology differently
- Is this a fact or an opinion?

3. It is always better to prevent a problem than to solve a problem
- Is this a fact or an opinion?

He has certain ways of doing things, and He must be right because everything He has made is perfect and beautiful except where man has stepped in and screwed things up.

So despite the fact that I have clearly demonstrated the logical gaps in your theology, you will not dare question it and simply revert back to the presupposition that God is always right in everything he does? Are you familiar with the concept of confirmation bias?

All Adam had to do was appreciate and love Jehovah, and demonstrate that love by acquiescing to His simple rules (which God has the right to make)

He has the right to make these rules, but if these rules are illogical and unjust, it necessarily means that God is illogical and unjust.

The problem that you are finding most difficult is that Jehovah kept to His rules of Biology...

No my problem is why did God make these rules of biology when these rules are unjust? These rules of biology punish innocent children for the sins of their father. Why would God establish such rules?

that say that the children inherit the DNA of their parents. Adam's DNA wasn't perfect anymore

Theists keep bringing up this argument, demonstrating how they know absolutely nothing about DNA. Suppose I broke the law and killed a man... would this alter my DNA in any way? No. So how does breaking the law by eating a fruit alter our DNA?

God could have designed a system in which everyone is born perfect, even if the parents sinned
- Is this a fact or an opinion?

since his constitution was changed so that now he would die

Why didn't God just change his constitution while leaving his DNA intact? If I cut your arm off, would your children be born without arms? No. Similarly, God could take a man's immortality away without affecting the immortality of his future offspring.

What is your problem with that? Is it that you think God should not have given Adam and Eve the privilege of showing their love for Him by obediently leaving His tree alone? Or you think that God should not have followed through with the consequences of their disobedience?

God should have restricted the consequences of disobedience to them and them alone as they are the guilty party. Instead, God chose to design a system where the innocent suffer for the sins of the guilty. This system is unjust.

Or maybe it's just that you don't like rules at all.

I don't like these rules because these rules are unjust and illogical

[onewithhim]

That is why Jesus stepped up to the plate and cancelled out all of mankind's debt

If God didn't design such a nonsensical legalistic system, Jesus wouldn't have to "step up to the plate". If God's system was perfect, it wouldn't have needed Jesus to fix his mess

Justin, you are dissatisfied with the way God does things, and that's your prerogative as a thinking human being

Ok so you have no actual rebuttals so you opt for "well that's your just opinion".

1. Jesus came to earth to solve a problem
- Is this a fact or an opinion? (assuming for argument sake that Christianity is true)

2. This problem could logically have been avoided had God designed our biology differently
- Is this a fact or an opinion?

3. It is always better to prevent a problem than to solve a problem
- Is this a fact or an opinion?

He has certain ways of doing things, and He must be right because everything He has made is perfect and beautiful except where man has stepped in and screwed things up.

So despite the fact that I have clearly demonstrated the logical gaps in your theology, you will not dare question it and simply revert back to the presupposition that God is always right in everything he does? Are you familiar with the concept of confirmation bias?

All Adam had to do was appreciate and love Jehovah, and demonstrate that love by acquiescing to His simple rules (which God has the right to make)

He has the right to make these rules, but if these rules are illogical and unjust, it necessarily means that God is illogical and unjust.

The problem that you are finding most difficult is that Jehovah kept to His rules of Biology...

No my problem is why did God make these rules of biology when these rules are unjust? These rules of biology punish innocent children for the sins of their father. Why would God establish such rules?

that say that the children inherit the DNA of their parents. Adam's DNA wasn't perfect anymore

Theists keep bringing up this argument, demonstrating how they know absolutely nothing about DNA. Suppose I broke the law and killed a man... would this alter my DNA in any way? No. So how does breaking the law by eating a fruit alter our DNA?

God could have designed a system in which everyone is born perfect, even if the parents sinned
- Is this a fact or an opinion?

since his constitution was changed so that now he would die

Why didn't God just change his constitution while leaving his DNA intact? If I cut your arm off, would your children be born without arms? No. Similarly, God could take a man's immortality away without affecting the immortality of his future offspring.

What is your problem with that? Is it that you think God should not have given Adam and Eve the privilege of showing their love for Him by obediently leaving His tree alone? Or you think that God should not have followed through with the consequences of their disobedience?

God should have restricted the consequences of disobedience to them and them alone as they are the guilty party. Instead, God chose to design a system where the innocent suffer for the sins of the guilty. This system is unjust.

Or maybe it's just that you don't like rules at all.

I don't like these rules because these rules are unjust and illogical

I DO HAVE REBUTTALS and I have posted them. What further can I do if you don't agree with me and yet keep asking the same questions?

It is true that Jesus came to earth to solve a problem.

I don't know how things would have gone if our biological make-up had been created differently.

Yes, I believe that God always does things right, for the best possible outcome for us. I have not thought much about "confirmation bias."

It is your opinion that God is not logical and He is unjust. You are entitled to that opinion! What else do you want me to say?

God Himself altered Adam's DNA, IMHO, because He had told Adam he would die if he took the fruit. He followed through with the stated consequences.

So you say that God should change the laws of heredity? OK.


.

[Justin108]

I don't know how things would have gone if our biological make-up had been created differently.

My solution would be to have everyone be born perfect and sinless as Adam was. This would remove the need for Jesus' sacrifice. Please explain the shortcomings of my solution.

Yes, I believe that God always does things right, for the best possible outcome for us.

You still believe this despite me pointing out several massive flaws in God's methods.

It is your opinion that God is not logical and He is unjust.

Again, you cannot refute my arguments and so you dismiss it as "just your opinion"

It is unjust for an innocent person do have to die on behalf of a guilty person
- Is this an opinion or a fact?

God Himself altered Adam's DNA, IMHO, because He had told Adam he would die if he took the fruit. He followed through with the stated consequences.

Are you suggesting that it is impossible for God to kill Adam without taking immortality away from his offspring? Would an omnipotent God not be able to achieve this?

So you say that God should change the laws of heredity? OK.

1. There is no biological evidence for "sin" in our DNA so your suggestion that "sin" is somehow a genetic trait that is passed on is an unproven claim. There is no law of heredity to support your position.
2. Your theory rests on the belief that Adam disobeying God somehow altered his DNA. As I've already pointed out (which you seemed to have ignored), committing a crime or disobeying a law would not change our DNA. If I murdered someone, my DNA would not change. So why would Adam's disobedience change his DNA? Again, there is no law of heredity to support your position.
3. The above two points aside, assuming that some law of heredity would somehow alter Adam's DNA, thereby unjustly stripping his offspring of immortality... well why shouldn't it be changed? Can you give me a good reason?

[onewithhim]

I don't know how things would have gone if our biological make-up had been created differently.

My solution would be to have everyone be born perfect and sinless as Adam was. This would remove the need for Jesus' sacrifice. Please explain the shortcomings of my solution.

Yes, I believe that God always does things right, for the best possible outcome for us.

You still believe this despite me pointing out several massive flaws in God's methods.

It is your opinion that God is not logical and He is unjust.

Again, you cannot refute my arguments and so you dismiss it as "just your opinion"

It is unjust for an innocent person do have to die on behalf of a guilty person
- Is this an opinion or a fact?

God Himself altered Adam's DNA, IMHO, because He had told Adam he would die if he took the fruit. He followed through with the stated consequences.

Are you suggesting that it is impossible for God to kill Adam without taking immortality away from his offspring? Would an omnipotent God not be able to achieve this?

So you say that God should change the laws of heredity? OK.

1. There is no biological evidence for "sin" in our DNA so your suggestion that "sin" is somehow a genetic trait that is passed on is an unproven claim. There is no law of heredity to support your position.
2. Your theory rests on the belief that Adam disobeying God somehow altered his DNA. As I've already pointed out (which you seemed to have ignored), committing a crime or disobeying a law would not change our DNA. If I murdered someone, my DNA would not change. So why would Adam's disobedience change his DNA? Again, there is no law of heredity to support your position.
3. The above two points aside, assuming that some law of heredity would somehow alter Adam's DNA, thereby unjustly stripping his offspring of immortality... well why shouldn't it be changed? Can you give me a good reason?

You just won't see the point to what I have been saying. I can't make it any clearer to you.

1) Adam could not sire perfect children because he was no longer perfect.
2) If God created all-perfect people that would not have been affected by Adam's sin, they would not have been ADAM'S children.
3) It was God's original plan that it would be ADAM'S children that would fill the earth. He wanted to stick to that.
4) It was merciful of God to allow Adam's children to be born. If He had started over, you and I would not be here.

If things had been as you wish they were, Adam's own children would not have been allowed to exist. Is that what you really think would have been fair? Or was it merciful for God to allow Adam's children to be born, even though Adam would now be imperfect?

.

[Left Site]

I don't know how things would have gone if our biological make-up had been created differently.

My solution would be to have everyone be born perfect and sinless as Adam was. This would remove the need for Jesus' sacrifice. Please explain the shortcomings of my solution.

Yes, I believe that God always does things right, for the best possible outcome for us.

You still believe this despite me pointing out several massive flaws in God's methods.

It is your opinion that God is not logical and He is unjust.

Again, you cannot refute my arguments and so you dismiss it as "just your opinion"

It is unjust for an innocent person do have to die on behalf of a guilty person
- Is this an opinion or a fact?

God Himself altered Adam's DNA, IMHO, because He had told Adam he would die if he took the fruit. He followed through with the stated consequences.

Are you suggesting that it is impossible for God to kill Adam without taking immortality away from his offspring? Would an omnipotent God not be able to achieve this?

So you say that God should change the laws of heredity? OK.

1. There is no biological evidence for "sin" in our DNA so your suggestion that "sin" is somehow a genetic trait that is passed on is an unproven claim. There is no law of heredity to support your position.
2. Your theory rests on the belief that Adam disobeying God somehow altered his DNA. As I've already pointed out (which you seemed to have ignored), committing a crime or disobeying a law would not change our DNA. If I murdered someone, my DNA would not change. So why would Adam's disobedience change his DNA? Again, there is no law of heredity to support your position.
3. The above two points aside, assuming that some law of heredity would somehow alter Adam's DNA, thereby unjustly stripping his offspring of immortality... well why shouldn't it be changed? Can you give me a good reason?

You just won't see the point to what I have been saying. I can't make it any clearer to you.

1) Adam could not sire perfect children because he was no longer perfect.
2) If God created all-perfect people that would not have been affected by Adam's sin, they would not have been ADAM'S children.
3) It was God's original plan that it would be ADAM'S children that would fill the earth. He wanted to stick to that.
4) It was merciful of God to allow Adam's children to be born. If He had started over, you and I would not be here.

If things had been as you wish they were, Adam's own children would not have been allowed to exist. Is that what you really think would have been fair? Or was it merciful for God to allow Adam's children to be born, even though Adam would now be imperfect?

.

Correct.

And besides that God would have had to create a new adult to replace Adam because newborn babies have to be taught by their parent.

And so God did what Justin108 said that he should do when he provided Jesus to us as the "last Adam."

It just wasn't fast enough for Justin108. But then he seems to doubt that God has greater wisdom than he and that God chose the best way possible in the best time possible to save those as yet unborn seed in Adam's loins.

If God Replaced Adam, Justin108 would have never been. Adam's seed was Adam and it would have died with him whether he was put to death immediately or he lived 930 years so as to let some of his seed produce.

Edit: That is why we yet are offered the chance to be salvaged from Adamic death.

[Justin108]

1) Adam could not sire perfect children because he was no longer perfect..

This isn't about what Adam can do! This is about what God can do! God could have made it possible for Adam to sire perfect children despite Adam no longer being perfect. Or is God not omnipotent?

2) If God created all-perfect people that would not have been affected by Adam's sin, they would not have been ADAM'S children.

Of course they would. It would be his DNA, only restored to it's perfect former state.

And even if they were't for some reason. Why is that especially important? Are adopted children not the children of their adopted parents? Is it really that important that they carry over Adam's sinful DNA?

3) It was God's original plan that it would be ADAM'S children that would fill the earth. He wanted to stick to that.

Again, God could have altered Adam's own DNA while keeping his sperm's DNA in it's original perfect state. Or is God not omnipotent?

Wait... remind me again what Jesus' sacrifice achieved? Is Jesus' sacrifice not somehow a route to our becoming perfect again? If Jesus' sacrifice makes us perfect, then clearly it is possible to make us perfect and at the same time have us have Adam's DNA. So why doesn't God just do whatever he did to restore our perfection without sacrificing Jesus?

4) It was merciful of God to allow Adam's children to be born. If He had started over, you and I would not be here.

You've brought this argument up before and I already responded.

Suppose a man rapes a woman and she falls pregnant. She gives birth to a little boy named Johnny. Is it a "mercy" that she was raped? Because "if she wasn't raped, little Johnny wouldn't be here".

If things had been as you wish they were, Adam's own children would not have been allowed to exist.

Wrong. If things had been as I wished, Cain, Abel, Seth... the whole lot would have been born, except they would have been born perfect. Don't twist my position around. I never suggested God make Adam sterile.

Let me explain it this way... Suppose there was a brilliant doctor. He has a pregnant patient. He does an ultrasound on her and notice that her child will be born horribly deformed. But he's the best doctor in the world! With his endless medical knowledge, he could cure this baby of all defects. So why wouldn't he?

You are under the impression that the doctor only has two options,
1) Abort the child
2) Give birth to a deformed child
...and that option 2 is a mercy

In reality, the doctor has three options
1) Abort the child
2) Give birth to a deformed child
3) Cure the child of his deformities

Who in their right mind wouldn't choose 3?

[Left Site]

1) Adam could not sire perfect children because he was no longer perfect..

This isn't about what Adam can do! This is about what God can do! God could have made it possible for Adam to sire perfect children despite Adam no longer being perfect. Or is God not omnipotent?

2) If God created all-perfect people that would not have been affected by Adam's sin, they would not have been ADAM'S children.

Of course they would. It would be his DNA, only restored to it's perfect former state.

And even if they were't for some reason. Why is that especially important? Are adopted children not the children of their adopted parents? Is it really that important that they carry over Adam's sinful DNA?

3) It was God's original plan that it would be ADAM'S children that would fill the earth. He wanted to stick to that.

Again, God could have altered Adam's own DNA while keeping his sperm's DNA in it's original perfect state. Or is God not omnipotent?

Wait... remind me again what Jesus' sacrifice achieved? Is Jesus' sacrifice not somehow a route to our becoming perfect again? If Jesus' sacrifice makes us perfect, then clearly it is possible to make us perfect and at the same time have us have Adam's DNA. So why doesn't God just do whatever he did to restore our perfection without sacrificing Jesus?

4) It was merciful of God to allow Adam's children to be born. If He had started over, you and I would not be here.

You've brought this argument up before and I already responded.

Suppose a man rapes a woman and she falls pregnant. She gives birth to a little boy named Johnny. Is it a "mercy" that she was raped? Because "if she wasn't raped, little Johnny wouldn't be here".

If things had been as you wish they were, Adam's own children would not have been allowed to exist.

Wrong. If things had been as I wished, Cain, Abel, Seth... the whole lot would have been born, except they would have been born perfect. Don't twist my position around. I never suggested God make Adam sterile.

Let me explain it this way... Suppose there was a brilliant doctor. He has a pregnant patient. He does an ultrasound on her and notice that her child will be born horribly deformed. But he's the best doctor in the world! With his endless medical knowledge, he could cure this baby of all defects. So why wouldn't he?

You are under the impression that the doctor only has two options,
1) Abort the child
2) Give birth to a deformed child
...and that option 2 is a mercy

In reality, the doctor has three options
1) Abort the child
2) Give birth to a deformed child
3) Cure the child of his deformities

Who in their right mind wouldn't choose 3?

?