Second Coming in the Sky?

[liamconnor]

Certain biblical authors talk of Christ returning from the sky: Acts and Paul.

Paul tells Christians that they will be caught up to meet him.


There is an obvious imaginative problem here: even if a figure should appear in the sky, that portion of sky will be visible from only so many miles. The number of people who could fly up to surround such a flying figure can only be so many; twenty, thirty?

At any rate, even during Paul's time people in Ephesus could not possibly see clouds in Thessalonia.


Did Paul believe that Jesus would literally return on clouds and therefore in one particular place in space? Or was Paul less interested in such literal details as he was in theological and apocalyptic precedents? Namely, Daniel's apocalypse, where

"I kept looking in the night visions, And behold, with the clouds of heaven One like a Son of Man was coming, And He came up to the Ancient of Days And was presented before Him. (Dan 7:13 NAS)

Daniel clearly uses symbolism throughout much of the book.

Do the early Christians use symbolism also when writing of Jesus' return?

[Benoni]

[Replying to Trump]

I guess you did not read post 78?

The Bible is full of metaphors






1 Corin 10:11 Now all these things happened unto them for examples (metaphors) : and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world (age) are come.

NT:5178 a

tupikos (toop-ee-kos'); an adverb related to NT:5179; found only in 1 Cor 10:11: as a warning, by way of example, typologically (i.e. figuratively, as a prophetic type, a typological interpretation of Scripture).



God speaks thought His Word in many hidden and ways the below verse speaks of parable; but I will also add spiritual or scriptural numbers, mysteries (Gk) Sacred secrets, over 20 times in NT) metaphors patterns, types, different languages, even deceptions to hide His word from the religious, the , wise, the carnal; and reveal it to babes. A babe is not the same as someone who can handle the milk of the word, anyone can handle milk; but a babe is like my small grandchildren when I speak to them; they trust everything I say, they have ears to hear.


Matthew 13 :13 Therefore I speak to them in parables, because seeing they do not see, and hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand. 14 And in them the prophecy of Isaiah is fulfilled, which says: 'Hearing you will hear and shall not understand, And seeing you will see and not perceive; 15 For the hearts of this people have grown dull. Their ears are hard of hearing, And their eyes they have closed, Lest they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, Lest they should understand with their hearts and turn, So that I should heal them.' 16 "But blessed are your eyes for they see, and your ears for they hear;

[JehovahsWitness]

So the Bible is just idioms, metaphors ...?

Jehovah's Witnesses do not believe EVERYTHING in the bible is symbolic, neither do we believe nothing in the bible is symbolic, the fact is the bible the bible is a combination of both: much in the bible is presented in parables, idiomatic expressions, poetry and symbolism but also many verses can be taken literally.

This particular passage (Luke 16:19-31) is a parable, and thus by definition not to be taken literally (every element Jesus mentioned is symbolic of something else).

Hope that helps,

JW

Full list of JW beliefs: https://www.jw.org/en/jehovahs-witnesse ... s-beliefs/


For a more details on the above please see my earlier post on this topic
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 428#868428

[onewithhim]

Yes, the story of the Rich Man and Lazarus is allegorical. There is nothing in it that can logically be taken literally.

First we must recognize the fact that Jesus was telling this parable to make a point to the Pharisees, who were listening. (Luke 16:14) Since we have discussed what "Hades" means quite a bit on these threads, it is fairly clearly evident the "Hades" means mankind's grave, not a place where someone is tortured endlessly. So it's quite reasonable to accept the idea that Jesus was here telling an illustration, or, a story, with a deeper meaning than what most people seem to want to believe. Jesus wasn't teaching that there is really a place where people are burned alive. He was using allegory to illustrate some hard facts about the Pharisees.

(Is "hell" (Hades) literally within speaking distance of heaven so that such a real conversation could be carried on? Also, if the rich man were in a literal burning lake, how could Abraham really send Lazarus to cool his tongue with just a drop of water on the tip of his finger?)

Here is Jesus' point: The rich man stood for the self-important religious leaders who rejected Jesus and later killed him. Lazarus pictured the common people who accepted Jesus. The death of the rich man and of Lazarus represented a change in their condition or their situation before God. This change took place when Jesus fed the neglected Lazarus-like people spiritual food, which they weren't getting from their irresponsible religious leaders that just gave them crumbs of spiritual food. (See verse 21.) These people that listened to Jesus came into favor with the "Greater Abraham." God the Father. At the same time, the hypocritical religious leaders "died" with respect to having God's favor at all. Being cast off, they suffered torments when their evil works were exposed by Jesus and his followers. (Acts 7:51-57)

So, therefore, it can be understood that this story (similar to an Aesop fable) does NOT teach that some dead people are tortured in a literal hell-fire.

Abraham is not in the spirit realm. Where in the Bible is that said? In fact, Jesus said that no one went to heaven before he came to earth, and also that he will resurrect EVERYBODY "in the last day," which hasn't come yet. (John 3:13; John 6:44)


My point in mentioning Genesis 3:3,4 is a very important one. The belief in a "soul" or "spirit" that leaves the body at death and lives on, fully conscious, is not a teaching of God. It does not have any basis in the Scriptures. The whole idea is from the Devil, as is seen in Genesis 3 and verse 4. You'll notice that God never indicates that humans would live on and on even after they die. He clearly said that they "will DIE." (Genesis 2:17; Gen.3:19) Is there anything there that mentions living on? Is there anything there that hints of a fiery demolition from which humans could never escape? Who was it that said that humans would really live on and never die? (Gen.3:4) So you see, if Satan's lie is recognized, we have an entirely different understanding of what happens to people when they die.

Yes, the people under the altar in heaven is allegorical. Just like the locusts in chapter 9 (or do you think they are literal?). Are there actually locusts that emerge from an abyss that look like horses ready for battle, with gold crowns, men's faces, women's hair, teeth like lions, iron breastplates and tails that sting like scorpions? Do you say "no"? Well neither are the "souls" under the altar in heaven literal.


I watched your flat earth video for over an hour. Will you do me the courtesy of going to a website that has all the answers that people can't get in other places, and all answers that are humanly possible in this system of things?

https://www.jw.org/en/search/?q=Soul.

Of course I will read into that.

OK, got it. I have read all this before in books given to me by JW's. So you are a Jehovah's Witness, correct? Then I won't waste my time asking you questions that I already know your answers to, . like this one that's on your "all answers that are humanly possible in this system of things":

Myth: The Bible says that vegetation was created before the sun existed to support photosynthesis."Genesis 1:11, 16.

Fact: The Bible shows that the sun, one of the stars that make up the heavens, was created before vegetation. (Genesis 1:1) Diffused light from the sun reached the earths surface during the first day, or epoch, of creation. As the atmosphere cleared, by the third day of creation, the light was strong enough to support photosynthesis. (Genesis 1:3-5, 12, 13) Only later did the sun become distinctly visible from the surface of the earth."Genesis 1:16

You see that? What the Bible actually says is considered a 'myth', while what the Watchtower prophets say is considered as 'fact'. Where in the verses posted do they get: "As the atmosphere cleared, by the third day of creation, the light was strong enough to support photosynthesis. Only later did the sun become distinctly visible from the surface of the earth" ?

Regarding the soul, or hell, if the dead in hades, hell, grave know nothing, why would the Bible make so many references to it, especially Jesus?

It's like; "Beware you wicked people, because hell awaits you, you will no longer be able to do anything. Your life, your existence will be no more!" Like that's really going to help the wicked to change: "you're going to die, and be forgotten by everyone, even God!" you see what I mean? That's exactly what the Evolution-theory teaches, that we die, and that's the end of it.

Did Jesus know that 'the dead know nothing'? That their very existence ends in the grave? You think Jesus would have used hell if the body made of dust was who we are, and once we turn to dust again, the dead know nothing?

Thanks.

Your objections aren't clear. You have included as "fact," above, that photosynthesis was strong enough on the 3rd day to support plant life, and only later did the sky clear so the sun could be seen from earth. I don't know if you agreed with that or not.

The Bible makes many references to "hell," the grave, because it figures very large in people's lives. Somebody is always dying, and the truth should be known about it....not that it is a place of fiery torture. No one will be forgotten by God. He will remember every little thing about the dead.

Death is NOT "the end of it." The dead do not know anything, so they won't be conscious of the passing of time. They will be RESURRECTED during Jesus' Millennial Reign. So it's not the end of them when they die.

Jesus knew the truth about death and that's why he used "hell" in his parable of the Rich Man. Only if one understands what the truth is will one understand that parable.

.

[onewithhim]

Jesus preached to the dead from the time of Noah this is speaking of the people from Sodom and Gomorrah.

The Apostle Peter explained that "Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; Which sometime were disobedient, when once the long-suffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is eight souls were saved by water." (I Pet.3:18-20).

I had a JW tell these were evil spirits. Spirits are people not "evils spirits" for that would be adding to this verse. Why would Jesus need to preached to evil spirits? He saves people not evil spirits.

What did He preach? What else the good news.

Jesus did NOT preach to any dead people, ever. I Peter 3:18-20 refers to the ANGELS that disobeyed God in the time of Noah. They are the "spirits" Peter was talking about. It is clear from the verses at Genesis 6, the first few verses, about the angels that came down, and also Jude 6. Then there's 2 Peter 2:4,5. If you look at these verses you can see that the spirits in I Peter 3:19,20 would undoubtedly be those disobedient angels.

The JW who told you that the spirits were EVIL spirits was correct. It is adding nothing to the verse. YOU are adding to the verse by calling those spirits dead people's spirits. There is nothing that departs from a person at death and goes on consciously living somewhere else. That is adding a LOT to the scriptures. Jesus "preached" to the evil spirits, but it doesn't say that it was to save them, does it? Apparently he wanted to proclaim his victory to them and tell them that it has been accomplished and they were to be in expectation of their soon-to-be demise. Jus aren't the only ones to recognize this fact. I have read foot-notes in other Bibles besides the NWT which say that same thing.

If you look at those verses that I referenced, you can see what I'm talking about.

.

[onewithhim]

[Replying to post 72 by Trump]

You are clearly not even bothering to read my posts, because I have addressed all of your objections in previous posts. If you don't want to understand my and JW's POV, just state clearly that you are ignoring our points and we won't attempt to reason with you.

[Benoni]

[Replying to onewithhim]

There is no reference that angels were anything to do with Noah and were NOT dis-obedient spirits during this time of Noah. They were people than as well as in this verse. What reference do you have with angel having anything to do with Noah. People are spirits when they die not according to any Bible foot note but according to God's Word.

Notice people are "spirits".

Ecclesiastes 12: 7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

1 Corinthians 2:11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.

The word angel simple means messenger. Satan was never an angel but masqueraded as an angel or messenger.


And no the word evil was not mentioned in the Bible or original language of the text so yes you would be adding to the Bible to prove you're bias.

[onewithhim]

Yes, I understand about the allegory, but is that all that the "breath of life" is?
Can we look deeper into this? How about the story of Lazarus and the rich man, Luke 16:22 So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abrahams bosom. The rich man also died and was buried. 23 And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

If it isn't an allegory then it is possible that those in this non-allegorical hell yet are able to speak to Father Abraham and it is possible that those in the non-allegorical hell can ask Father Abraham to send their brother to them with a drop of water on his brother's finger to cool their tongue from the heat of the fire, just as Luke 16:24 says. We cannot pick and choose what parts we wish to see as allegorical. It is either all allegorical or it is all literal. If a person is not willing to see that such things are clearly allegorical, then, that person is not willing to consider anything anyone tries to tell them.

The allegory is about the shift of God's rulership blessing from the natural Jews to the spiritual Jews selected out of all nationalities. The drop of water that the Rich Man in Hell asked Father Abraham for was a request that God send those brothers or fellow Jews who had embraced the New Covenant to that Old Covenant Rich Man ex-ruling class of the flesh and blood Israel with a watering down of the verdict to dismiss them as rulers by authority of the Jerusalem above. To that Rich Man's torment he found out that the Jerusalem above has greater authority than that flesh and blood Jerusalem below.

Galatians 4:21 Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law?
22 For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman.
23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise.
24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.
25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.

Galatians 4:26 :But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.

This is Jesus speaking, is this all allegorical?
1. the beggar dies and is carried by angels to Abrahams bosom
references; John 1:18
No one has seen God at any time. The only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him.

Yes, the Lazarus class are the elect of God in Christ. They are one body, one spirit, with Christ and so the New Covenant begins right there as you have identified, with the Christ. Jesus was the principal Lazarus but the entire Lazarus includes his unified body of believers who are one with him.

John 11:26
And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die. Do you believe this?

1) Lazarus in the bosom of Abraham, the Father of our faith, the other Jesus, in the bosom of the Father.

John 11:26 says those who believes in Jesus will never die, and there is no mention of Lazarus being buried, yet we know he was because even David; Acts 13:36 For David, after he had served his own generation by the will of God, fell asleep, was buried with his fathers, and saw corruption; 37 but He whom God raised up saw no corruption."
.. seen corruption, but may be there in the spirit realm with Abraham also?

You must take verses 25 and 26 together:

John 11:25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

Verse 26 is speaking of those who were raised from the dead in verse 25. This happens spiritually before it happens literally. What do I mean by that? We were dead spiritually to God by virtue of our sins and once we are raised to life spiritually through God's acceptance of our faith, we never have to be considered spiritually dead in God's eyes ever again. When that becomes true then the literal resurrection and everlasting life is assured to also come to be true.

That is very deep for most people but in identifying Jesus as the principal Lazarus you showed me you are ready to understand.

Revelation 5:9 When He opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held. 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth? 11 Then a white robe was given to each of them; and it was said to them that they should rest a little while longer, until both the number of their fellow servants and their brethren, who would be killed as they were, was completed.

Is this allegorical too?

Because you wrote so much I decided I would stop here. The rest of what you stated were hinged to what has been so far addressed anyway. So you should be able to see your answers already by just the discussion to this point.

Revelation 5:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?

Those being spoken about are: Luke 11:51 From the blood of Abel unto the blood of Zacharias, which perished between the altar and the temple: verily I say unto you, It shall be required of this generation.

That is why the, How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge and avenge our blood ...

What we see there is the same as what we see here, as follows:

Genesis 4:10 And he<(God) said, What hast thou done? the voice of thy brother's blood crieth unto me from the ground.

It is the precious value of the life (soul) that is in the blood crying out to God for justice. It is an abstract reality which is being expressed rather than a literal occurrence.

Did you bother to read my post #64? Isn't that pretty good reasoning? HOW could someone in "hell" actually talk to Abraham in heaven? And how can we forget that Abraham is literally still dead because NO ONE WENT TO HEAVEN BEFORE JESUS DIED AND WAS RESURRECTED (John 3:13)? And how could someone being roasted in fire actually be relieved by one drop of water? How could that be possible? Isn't it obvious that Jesus' parable was ALLEGORICAL?

And if you understand that spirits of people aren't conscious beings that separate at death, you will understand those souls under the altar in heaven are not literal. Most of Revelation isn't literal. I don't know what you really believe. You are all over the map, so to speak. Perhaps you would like to make clear what your beliefs are.

[onewithhim]

[Replying to onewithhim]

There is no reference that angels were anything to do with Noah and were NOT dis-obedient spirits during this time of Noah. They were people than as well as in this verse. What reference do you have with angel having anything to do with Noah. People are spirits when they die not according to any Bible foot note but according to God's Word.

Notice people are "spirits".

Ecclesiastes 12: 7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

1 Corinthians 2:11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.

The word angel simple means messenger. Satan was never an angel but masqueraded as an angel or messenger.


And no the word evil was not mentioned in the Bible or original language of the text so yes you would be adding to the Bible to prove you're bias.

Go back and read what I wrote. Any reasonable person can see that it is the fallen angels that were being referred to in all those verses that I cited. There is no need to include the word "evil," because anyone who disobeys God and does not repent is evil.

[Benoni]

[Replying to onewithhim]

I did read every line and you're argument gave no reference to fallen angels or angels during the time of Noah. People lived and were part of the Noah story not angels. Remember Sodom and Gomorrah. So where is you're proof besides you're bias tradition?
I posted two verses that shows us people are spirits and people lived during the time of Noah and they were also disobedient and were BIG part of Noah's story. Show me you're angels in reference to Noah?????

[Trump]

Yes, I understand about the allegory, but is that all that the "breath of life" is?
Can we look deeper into this? How about the story of Lazarus and the rich man, Luke 16:22 So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abrahams bosom. The rich man also died and was buried. 23 And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

If it isn't an allegory then it is possible that those in this non-allegorical hell yet are able to speak to Father Abraham and it is possible that those in the non-allegorical hell can ask Father Abraham to send their brother to them with a drop of water on his brother's finger to cool their tongue from the heat of the fire, just as Luke 16:24 says. We cannot pick and choose what parts we wish to see as allegorical. It is either all allegorical or it is all literal. If a person is not willing to see that such things are clearly allegorical, then, that person is not willing to consider anything anyone tries to tell them.

Thank you so much, but I wouldn't go as far as saying:"that person is not willing to consider anything anyone tries to tell them", you have to admit we have been cherry-picking between literal and allegorical for a very long time, which explains all the different denominations of Christian.
I agree Luke 16:24 taken literally doesn't add up, what I was referring to is the life/soul/breath of life in the body made of dust, whether or not that's just some impersonal force like onewithhim says it is, or it is something much more?

The allegory is about the shift of God's rulership blessing from the natural Jews to the spiritual Jews selected out of all nationalities. The drop of water that the Rich Man in Hell asked Father Abraham for was a request that God send those brothers or fellow Jews who had embraced the New Covenant to that Old Covenant Rich Man ex-ruling class of the flesh and blood Israel with a watering down of the verdict to dismiss them as rulers by authority of the Jerusalem above. To that Rich Man's torment he found out that the Jerusalem above has greater authority than that flesh and blood Jerusalem below.

Galatians 4:21 Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law?
22 For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman.
23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise.
24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.
25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.

Galatians 4:26 :But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.

Yes, that too makes sense.

This is Jesus speaking, is this all allegorical?
1. the beggar dies and is carried by angels to Abrahams bosom
references; John 1:18
No one has seen God at any time. The only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him.

Yes, the Lazarus class are the elect of God in Christ. They are one body, one spirit, with Christ and so the New Covenant begins right there as you have identified, with the Christ. Jesus was the principal Lazarus but the entire Lazarus includes his unified body of believers who are one with him.

And that too makes sense, Lazarus/Jesus died, (didn't mention being buried) and was taken to Abraham/Gods bosom,. Yes, I can see that.

John 11:26
And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die. Do you believe this?

1) Lazarus in the bosom of Abraham, the Father of our faith, the other Jesus, in the bosom of the Father.

John 11:26 says those who believes in Jesus will never die, and there is no mention of Lazarus being buried, yet we know he was because even David; Acts 13:36 For David, after he had served his own generation by the will of God, fell asleep, was buried with his fathers, and saw corruption; 37 but He whom God raised up saw no corruption."
.. seen corruption, but may be there in the spirit realm with Abraham also?

You must take verses 25 and 26 together:

John 11:25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

Verse 26 is speaking of those who were raised from the dead in verse 25. This happens spiritually before it happens literally. What do I mean by that? We were dead spiritually to God by virtue of our sins and once we are raised to life spiritually through God's acceptance of our faith, we never have to be considered spiritually dead in God's eyes ever again. When that becomes true then the literal resurrection and everlasting life is assured to also come to be true.

That is very deep for most people but in identifying Jesus as the principal Lazarus you showed me you are ready to understand.

And that too makes sense. I also made the mistake to "assume" that Lazarus was buried since even David was buried, but the parable doesn't say that. It just said he was taken to Abrahams bosom, like Jesus was taken to the bosom of the Father without his body seeing corruption:

John 1:18
No one has seen God at any time. The only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him.

Now I see where onewithhim gets Abraham to mean the Great Abraham, as in God.

Revelation 5:9 When He opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held. 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth? 11 Then a white robe was given to each of them; and it was said to them that they should rest a little while longer, until both the number of their fellow servants and their brethren, who would be killed as they were, was completed.

Is this allegorical too?

Because you wrote so much I decided I would stop here. The rest of what you stated were hinged to what has been so far addressed anyway. So you should be able to see your answers already by just the discussion to this point.

Revelation 5:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?

Those being spoken about are: Luke 11:51 From the blood of Abel unto the blood of Zacharias, which perished between the altar and the temple: verily I say unto you, It shall be required of this generation.

That is why the, How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge and avenge our blood ...

What we see there is the same as what we see here, as follows:

Genesis 4:10 And he<(God) said, What hast thou done? the voice of thy brother's blood crieth unto me from the ground.

It is the precious value of the life (soul) that is in the blood crying out to God for justice. It is an abstract reality which is being expressed rather than a literal occurrence.

Excellent, but how would you describe those souls?

So I've been thinking, correct me if I'm wrong. I'm trying to associate this with something I can understand; like there was this instance when I've seen injustice done to a person, a child, and he died, and even after all them years, every time I think of that child, his little soul cries out to me, as if he was still alive!
Now is this something like how God keeps the righteous who have passed on alive, in His heart and mind? Is this how their blood cries out to God?

If so, that would explain a lot.

Also, you may have said this already, but how do you see Christ second coming in the sky, literal, or allegorical?

Thanks again.