Required vow of obedience?

[tam]

May you have peace!

From another thread:

Why take the vows of obedience to Jehovah's visible organization on Earth and then refute those vows?

The organization in question requires this vow at baptism.

I have asked this question before and I don't recall receiving a response, but:

What right does this organization (or any other sect or denomination) have to require their members to first vow obedience to them, to begin with? Who or what gave them that right?

Christ?

Did He instruct anyone to require this (vow of obedience to them) at baptism?



Peace to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

[JehovahsWitness]

Please note that neither of those quotes support a requirement of making ... a private declaration of dedication.

Obviously if one is giving one's life to Jehovah it is fitting to let Jehovah know about it. What kind of dedication would involve not letting anyone including the one one is dedicated to, know? Even non-witnesses who "give their lives to Jesus" tell him (Jesus) about it. A dedication involves at least two parties, the person making a vow and the person or thing to which that vow is made. Dedicating ones life to JEHOVAH is a personal matter and is made in private prayer to Him alone but if a person does love Jehovah they confess that love to Him.

If dedication is private why do Jehovah's Witnesses make public statements about it?

While the dedication is private, Christians are not ashamed of it, nor if asked will they deny or try and hide it (see Mat 10:33). Christians see no reason not to admit what they have done if they are asked; the Christian elders, biblically charged to oversee (survey and safeguard) the congregation, see it fitting to ask.

Further their dedication is an integral part of BAPTISM which is a public declaration of one's new positions vis-a-vis Jehovah [/i] To illustate: A man and a woman, after having gotten to know each other and having fallen in love, decide to "make it official". Their committment was made initially to each other in private, but wanting to be publically recognized as having made that committement, knowing that this will impact on their future public lives in the community, they officially record that dedication with a public ceremony. We call those marriages.

In a similar way, even in ancient Israel, vows were publically officiated at the temple and Jesus not only himself was publcally baptised but instructed his disciples to do the same (see Mat 28:20). As Peter implied, baptism would only be a bath if it were not in symbol of ones dedication, so in the light of the above, Jehovah's Witnesses see nothing unfitting or scripturally inappropriate to ask for a pubic affirmation that baptism candidates have followed the scriptural steps that logically lead to their publicizing their decision.

[JehovahsWitness]

So if one were to follow Christ out of that organization, then one will have broken no vows. Correct?

Why would Christ lead someone away from God's organisation?

Christ is part of God's organization, the only way for Christ to leave it is to rebell agains the Father, and that can never be. Christ is the head of the Christian congregation, the congregation is the body of Christ, and the individual members are like the feet or the toe or the fingers ...the whole thing makes up the major part of God's organisation. How can a head lead someone away from the body? Your question makes no sense!

[Justin108]

Please note that neither of those quotes support a requirement of making ... a private declaration of dedication.

Obviously if one is giving one's life to Jehovah it is fitting to let Jehovah know about it.

It's astounding how often theists forget that their own god is omniscient

[Benoni]

The word Christ means anointed and the anointing is spiritual and with in us not religious and made to some organization of man. Sounds like more bondage to a system.

"And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, My People, that you be not partakers of her sins, and that you receive not her plagues." (Revelation 18:4).

[2timothy316]

[Replying to post 7 by tam]

QUESTION Are dedication (a vow) and obedience the same thing?

No, dedication is an unconditional vow to a person or a cause without reservation; naturally a deidication encompasses obedience. The dedication that preceeds baptism is a life long vow to belong to Jehovah.

Obedience is a determination to follow instructions all obedience to humans is relative. All dedication involves some form of obedience but not all obedience reflects being dedicated. For example, Children are told to obey their parents, wives are expected to obey their husbands, Christians are told to obey secular authorities and members of the Christian congregation told to obey those taking the lead. None of the above (with the exception of marriage) involve a vow, much less a vow of dedication.

In short dedication to God (vowing one's life to God) will involve obedience. Let's take an example of the requirement for Christians to obey the secular authorities. The law prohibits for example drinking and driving. Can a person deliberately disobey this law while living up to their Christian dedication? Of course not, this would needlessly endanger lives and is contrary to the Christian law of Love. Thus it is understood by Christians that their dedication to Jehovah will INVOLVE or publically associate them with a certain line of conduct. Namely being obedient to various legitimate authorities whether those authorities be secular or spiritual.


JW

In other words if an elder or even a member of the Governing Body instructed someone to disobey a clear Bible principle, like they instructed a person to take blood. There would have to be a choice made by the person as to who they will obey. Our vow is to Jehovah God. The obvious choice would be to follow the Bible on that matter. But does that mean because of that one or even a group of elders are in error that we abandon Jehovah's Earthly organization? No. Our vow is to follow the commandments set in the Bible. One of those commandments is not to forsake our meeting together. Another one is to be forgiving of our fellow brothers and sisters even if we have been treated wrongly. (Heb 10:25, Col. 3:13)

[Left Site]

So if one were to follow Christ out of that organization, then one will have broken no vows. Correct?

Why would Christ lead someone away from God's organisation?

Christ is part of God's organization, the only way for Christ to leave it is to rebell agains the Father, and that can never be. Christ is the head of the Christian congregation, the congregation is the body of Christ, and the individual members are like the feet or the toe or the fingers ...the whole thing makes up the major part of God's organisation. How can a head lead someone away from the body? Your question makes no sense!

Christ would only do that if an organization proved to be evil and that is not true of the organization behind Jehovah's Witnesses. They are like one of the seven congregations and God and Christ expect that you bear with them as they learn and grow. They represent some 11 or 12 million people whom God is working to save.

Go back to the thread, 'What Fraction of People Will Make it to Heaven', and see the new light that is flashing up. My last post covers it well. Once you understand it and embrace it, your job is to patiently help those who are your own. You can't show love by fearfully fleeing from everyone you imagine is wrong. Your job is to show love's patient endurance and help them.

As I said before, though it is not a popular opinion, I find Jehovah's Witnesses are one of the better organizations. If others wish to get lost in resentment over my saying that, it is on them.

Paul gave much counsel on not deserting those masters we were attached to when we found faith. That same principle applies.

Change is never easy but we ought to know there has to be change. Let us handle it with compassion and mercy toward those who struggle amidst that change. That is the Christ-like thing to do.

[Benoni]

[Replying to 2timothy316]
This verse trumps the forsaking of a corrupt organizations.
"And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, My People, that you be not partakers of her sins, and that you receive not her plagues." (Revelation 18:4).

[2timothy316]

[Replying to 2timothy316]
This verse trumps the forsaking of a corrupt organizations.
"And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, My People, that you be not partakers of her sins, and that you receive not her plagues." (Revelation 18:4).

Agreed. Which is why the vow is to God. It is up to Jesus to correct any corruption in the congregation. Thus if there is a religion that is not improving but getting worse in following the Bible then one can only assume that Jesus is not directing it and one needs to get out of there.

[Left Site]

[Replying to 2timothy316]
This verse trumps the forsaking of a corrupt organizations.
"And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, My People, that you be not partakers of her sins, and that you receive not her plagues." (Revelation 18:4).

It seems to do so when one takes it in an extreme way.

To understand it, go to what Paul says about "in a great house" at 2 Timothy 2:19-21.

You can separate yourself spiritually from those vessels that are variously polluted. Unless they are obviously extremely evil it defies love to forsake them completely.

I am glad you thought to mention that as what you said is how Jehovah's Witnesses have believed.

There may have been a time for the extreme or God would not have allowed it. But that time is now past. It is time to work for peace so that all may calm their minds and hearts and become free to learn.

Too many try to turn the spiritual into something literal. There is only "a great house" mentioned by Paul in 2 Timothy 2. That house is spiritual and we all live together in that house.

Paul did not advocate moving to a new house, nor did he say that we should cast others we wish to be purged of out of that house.

When we form a habit of having to turn spiritual things into tangible things like breaking away to form new organizations, it only breeds contempt and causes us to not be fully capable of living by the love Paul described for us at 1 Corinthians 13.

But if anyone wishes to continue in the flesh that way, we all will have to appear for God's final judgment.

[Benoni]

[Replying to JehovahsWitness]

So if baptism is so important to JW explain baptism by fire?