What Fraction of People Will Make it to Heaven?

[jgh7]

I've read in the bible that many will not enter the gates of Heaven. I was wondering what others think about this statistically speaking. So that's what this poll is for. If you have some verses or ideas backing up your opinion, feel free to give them.

[tam]

The waters of life flow out of the bellies of the Christ-like 144,000 per Jesus' promise at John 7: 38 "He that puts faith in me, just as the Scripture has said, Out from his inmost part streams of living water will flow. "Will flow", as in their future. The 144,000 have achieved that by the time the great crowd appears out of the great tribulation. The great crowd are dependent of those fountains of the water of life which flow from out of the bellies of those individuals who are one of the 144,000. So "shepherding them to the fountains of the water of life", means they are being guided to the members of that group of 144,000 for teaching.

Oh no, BusB (peace to you). This is incorrect.

Lets post the entire passage of the John verse you quoted for context:

On the last and greatest day of the feast, [Jesus] stood up and called out in a loud voice, If anyone is thirsty, let him come to Me and drink. To the one who believes in Me, it is just as the Scripture has said: Streams of living water will flow from within him. He was speaking about the spirit, which those who believed in Him were later to receive. For the spirit had not yet been given, because Jesus had not yet been glorified.


Note also the passage below:

[Jesus] answered, If you knew the gift of God and who is asking you for a drink, you would have asked Him, and He would have given you living water.

Sir, the woman replied, You have nothing to draw with and the well is deep. Where then will You get this living water? Are You greater than our father Jacob, who gave us this well and drank from it himself, as did his sons and his livestock?

[Jesus] said to her, Everyone who drinks this water will be thirsty again. But whoever drinks the water I give him will never thirst. Indeed,the water I give him will become in him a fount of water springing up to eternal life.


Christ gives us the water of life (which water is holy spirit - which spirit Christ gives). We come to HIM to receive this water.


Religion keeps trying (in error) to place something or someone between us and Christ. Why do people continue to listen to them and not to Christ?

"Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls." Matthew 11:28, 29

Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

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The waters of life flow out of the bellies of the Christ-like 144,000 per Jesus' promise at John 7: 38 "He that puts faith in me, just as the Scripture has said, Out from his inmost part streams of living water will flow. "Will flow", as in their future. The 144,000 have achieved that by the time the great crowd appears out of the great tribulation. The great crowd are dependent of those fountains of the water of life which flow from out of the bellies of those individuals who are one of the 144,000. So "shepherding them to the fountains of the water of life", means they are being guided to the members of that group of 144,000 for teaching.

Oh no, BusB (peace to you). This is incorrect.

Lets post the entire passage of the John verse you quoted for context:

On the last and greatest day of the feast, [Jesus] stood up and called out in a loud voice, If anyone is thirsty, let him come to Me and drink. To the one who believes in Me, it is just as the Scripture has said: Streams of living water will flow from within him. He was speaking about the spirit, which those who believed in Him were later to receive. For the spirit had not yet been given, because Jesus had not yet been glorified.


Note also the passage below:

[Jesus] answered, If you knew the gift of God and who is asking you for a drink, you would have asked Him, and He would have given you living water.

Sir, the woman replied, You have nothing to draw with and the well is deep. Where then will You get this living water? Are You greater than our father Jacob, who gave us this well and drank from it himself, as did his sons and his livestock?

[Jesus] said to her, Everyone who drinks this water will be thirsty again. But whoever drinks the water I give him will never thirst. Indeed,the water I give him will become in him a fount of water springing up to eternal life.


Christ gives us the water of life (which water is holy spirit - which spirit Christ gives). We come to HIM to receive this water.


Religion keeps trying (in error) to place something or someone between us and Christ. Why do people continue to listen to them and not to Christ?

"Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls." Matthew 11:28, 29

Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

IMHO you are letting emotion confuse you. As a result you are scrambling things together that ought not be.

Jesus said, as recorded for us at John 6:63 "It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life."

Now, John 7:38 "He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water."

Out of whose belly? Out of the belly of "He that believeth on me..."

Now it says, John 7:39 "(But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)"

They cannot have "rivers of living water" flow out of their own bellies until through faith in Jesus they received the holy spirit to help them be filled with the life-giving words of the spirit. So yes, Jesus spoke that concerning the holy spirit they would receive after his death. That in no way changes the point I shared with you. In fact, it reinforces it.

They, the elect of God, would receive that outpouring of the holy spirit and by it be helped to understand the life-giving words of spirit which Jesus spoke to them, thus making those words a part of them so that those words could come to flow out of their bellies like fountains of water of life for that great crowd to be able to be shepherded to and drink.

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Take note of how the 144,000 becoming as living fountains of water from which others can drink for life, contrasts with the following:

2 Peter 2:17-19
17 "These are wells without water, clouds that are carried with a tempest; to whom the mist of darkness is reserved for ever.
18 For when they speak great swelling words of vanity, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, through much wantonness, those that were clean escaped from them who live in error.
19 While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage."

Jude 1:12 "These are spots in your feasts of charity, when they feast with you, feeding themselves without fear: clouds they are without water, carried about of winds; trees whose fruit withereth, without fruit, twice dead, plucked up by the roots.."

As one body, one spirit, one soul and mind with Jesus Christ, the 144,000 are as "wells of salvation":

Isaiah 12:2 "Behold, God is my salvation; I will trust, and not be afraid: for the LORD JEHOVAH is my strength and my song; he also is become my salvation.
3 Therefore with joy shall ye draw water out of the wells of salvation."

Proverbs 20:5 "Counsel in the heart of man is like deep water; but a man of understanding will draw it out."


Yes, those living fountains of water at Revelation 7: 17 are the 144,000 as individuals who are already become one with Christ.

[onewithhim]

[Replying to post 86 by tam]

I fully agree with you that the 144,000 will live and reign as king/priests right here on earth. When one digs deep enough into the Old Testament they find that to be the only conclusion possible.

And there are other ways to understand the New Testament verses which seem to indicate otherwise.

The other verses that tam brought up have been discussed ad nauseum and they are just as symbolic, you might say, as when Jesus said in Matthew that he would be WITH his disciples from the first century on, right up to today, even though he is in heaven. (Matt.28:20)

"Coming down out of heaven" simply refers to the fact that the Kingdom's influence is felt here on the earth, though it remains in heaven. That the expression comes from Revelation is significant....most of the book is symbolic, and there are other places in Scripture that mention God "going down" to the earth but in fact He stays in heaven. (Genesis 11:5, 18:21; Exodus 3:8)

When one really studies the O.T., yes, it is plain to see that the people then had the hope of living in paradise on Earth. Isaiah 11:6-9 for a start. Job had the idea of his flesh becoming "fresher than in youth." (Job 33:25) So yes, most people will be living here on this planet. But the N.T. clearly shows that some people will go to be with Christ in heaven, and it's sad that people find it necessary to twist those verses in any way to fit their ideas.

.

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[Replying to post 86 by tam]

I fully agree with you that the 144,000 will live and reign as king/priests right here on earth. When one digs deep enough into the Old Testament they find that to be the only conclusion possible.

And there are other ways to understand the New Testament verses which seem to indicate otherwise.

The other verses that tam brought up have been discussed ad nauseum and they are just as symbolic, you might say, as when Jesus said in Matthew that he would be WITH his disciples from the first century on, right up to today, even though he is in heaven. (Matt.28:20)

"Coming down out of heaven" simply refers to the fact that the Kingdom's influence is felt here on the earth, though it remains in heaven. That the expression comes from Revelation is significant....most of the book is symbolic, and there are other places in Scripture that mention God "going down" to the earth but in fact He stays in heaven. (Genesis 11:5, 18:21; Exodus 3:8)

When one really studies the O.T., yes, it is plain to see that the people then had the hope of living in paradise on Earth. Isaiah 11:6-9 for a start. Job had the idea of his flesh becoming "fresher than in youth." (Job 33:25) So yes, most people will be living here on this planet. But the N.T. clearly shows that some people will go to be with Christ in heaven, and it's sad that people find it necessary to twist those verses in any way to fit their ideas.

.

I realize there is always the possibility that I could be wrong, but I do not see any real evidence that the 144,000 live literally in heaven.

You have said, ""Coming down out of heaven" simply refers to the fact that the Kingdom's influence is felt here on the earth, though it remains in heaven."

That was true even when Daniel chapter 4 was written concerning the Most High being ruler in the kingdom of mankind.

Daniel chapter 7 seems to indicate that the kingdom overseen by Christ in heaven will be right here on earth. And that fits the theme that the Most High is ruler in the kingdom of mankind, yes the mankind it says the kingdom is given to:

Daniel 7: 27 And the kingdom and the rulership and the grandeur of the kingdoms under all the heavens were given to the people who are the holy ones of the Supreme One. Their kingdom is an indefinitely lasting kingdom, and all the rulerships will serve and obey even them.

Daniel 2: 44a And in the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be brought to ruin. And the kingdom itself will not be passed on to any other people...."

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 135 by BusB]

How does "to the people who" and "to any other people" indicate location?

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[Replying to post 135 by BusB]

How does "to the people who" and "to any other people" indicate location?

"People" in context in Daniel means "people of the earth who are chosen as God's holy ones."

It most certainly is not saying they are in heaven.

But that is not near all the evidence I have, some of which I have previously touched on but no one seemed interested.

Such as 2 Corinthians chapter 5 where the contrast in verse one to the house not made with hands reserved in heaven (as in guaranteed to be by heaven's will) is a clear contrast to the house of God which abides in the tabernacle of imperfect flesh show to be built with human hands in 1 Corinthians chapter 3.

That has to be consistently carried through in the chapter in verses like 6-8 but it is not being done and that is a real shame.

People think of that word "home" in a narrow sense as an individual's body but that is untrue to the sense of the Greek word which means "home" in a much broader sense, like "at home in one's country."

If I can find and see these things, surely there is no excuse for others not looking hard enough to see them.

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 135 by BusB]

How does "to the people who" and "to any other people" indicate location?

"People" in context in Daniel means "people of the earth who are chosen as God's holy ones."

The kingdom and the rulership ... were given to the people who are the holy ones of the Supreme One.

It doesn't say "the people of the earth" it says "people". There is no disputing these "people" were chosen from the earth but what in the verse itself indicates where they will end up? How does "the kingdom [was] given to the people... the holy ones" say where they will be to exercise their rulership?

Daniel 2: 44a And in the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be brought to ruin. And the kingdom itself will not be passed on to any other people...."

How does "any other people" indicate location?

[Left Site]

[Replying to post 135 by BusB]

How does "to the people who" and "to any other people" indicate location?

"People" in context in Daniel means "people of the earth who are chosen as God's holy ones."

The kingdom and the rulership ... were given to the people who are the holy ones of the Supreme One.

It doesn't say "the people of the earth" it says "people". There is no disputing these "people" were chosen from the earth but what in the verse itself indicates where they will end up? How does "the kingdom [was] given to the people... the holy ones" say where they will be to exercise their rulership?

Daniel 2: 44a And in the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be brought to ruin. And the kingdom itself will not be passed on to any other people...."

How does "any other people" indicate location?

IMHO you are playing the same skirting around game which I see so many play with you.

I believe it is rather obvious that Daniel chapter seven is speaking of people on this earth. And I believe you can see that if you want to but if you don't want to, you won't. But I also believe that deep down in you know it is speaking of people on this earth.

I consider myself to be rather stupid compared to most people, and so I know that if I can see something that is reasonable others surely ought to be able to see it unless they merely desire to resist admitting that they see it.

At Daniel 2: 35, what is that stone, and what does it fill?

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Daniel 2: 35 "At that time the iron, the molded clay, the copper, the silver and the gold were, all together, crushed and became like the chaff from the summer threshing floor, and the wind carried them away so that no trace at all was found of them. And as for the stone that struck the image, it became a large mountain and filled the whole earth."

I know that Jehovah's Witnesses teach that the stone in the above verse grows into the mountain which is the Kingdom of God that is ruled by Jesus Christ.

Notice that verse says the mountain grows and fills the whole earth. Now surely I can't be mistaken about what my mind tells me I am reading there, can I?

Now, if you can, recall my previous posts wherein I explained from scripture what that mountain itself is made of:

Psalms 125: 1-2
1 Those trusting in Jehovah Are like Mount Zion, which cannot be made to totter, but dwells even to time indefinite.
2 Jerusalem"as mountains are all around it, So Jehovah is all around his people From now on and to time indefinite.

The elect are that Mount Zion which Daniel 2:35 speaks about filling the earth.

Revelation 1: 6 "and he made us to be a kingdom, priests to his God and Father"yes, to him be the glory and the might forever. Amen."

The elect are that Kingdom ruled by Jesus Christ. It is the unity among them as they spread out in the earth which fills the earth with that mountain, for they are that mountain.

Psalms 74: 2 "Remember your assembly that you acquired long ago, The tribe that you redeemed as your inheritance, This Mount Zion in which you have resided."

Yes and touching that holy mountain was forbidden to many, signify God's jealous protection of his anointed.

Where else do we see that?

1 Corinthians 3: 17 "If anyone destroys the temple of God, God will destroy him; for the temple of God is holy, which [temple] YOU people are."

For the same reason that Jesus never spoke to the religious leaders of Israel but what he spoke to them in parables, for that same reason Jehovah has seen to it that much in the scriptures must be spiritually discerned. But Jehovah has also provided us many fairly easily understood clues so that we can see if we have our eyes freed to see.