Paradise on Earth

[onewithhim]

When I learned that the Bible speaks of a restored Garden of Eden and the restoration of mankind to the perfection and endless life that Adam forfeited, I was thrilled. Who doesn't want to keep living on this beautiful earth, with our loved ones, and being able to do all the things we love to do---endlessly?

If God said to you today, "When do you want to die?" would you say "now!!"? I don't think very many people would say that.

We CAN live forever here on Earth. The Bible tells us that we can.

Matthew 5:5
Psalm 37:9-11,29

[tam]

[Replying to post 709 by tam]

Did you do that with the article you posted? If you did, did you not notice that the verses did not support the claim in many of those points?

I believe the verses I posted did support all the claims I posted they did. And I think a proper reading of Scripture would make that same conclusion. But the fact that you actually read those same Scripture passages and come to a different conclusion just proves

Actually, what it proves is that I took the time to read, examine, and respond to a lengthy copy-paste that you posted.

You 'didn't really want to take the time to go item by item'. So you just skipped past every response, and yet somehow still think that you can carry on the conversation as if I did not show that those claims were not supported by what is written.

The only response you did make (on one item) was to suggest that people look to google and wiki and even to what other sects of Christendom believe.

No suggestion to look to Christ.

(Not even a suggestion to look at what was written - of course that would be because what is written actually disproves the author's claim).


Instead, look anywhere and to anyone except Christ.

You cannot state what my faith relies upon, RR. Yyou can state what your faith relies upon (a visible organization and men), but you do notknow my faith. My faith relies upon Christ.

Ahhhhh . . . but my faith relies upon Christ, as I have said many times as well.

Ahhh... but that is not what you demonstrate. Indeed, you demonstrate AND say that all must rely upon the RCC for proper 'interpretation'; to get it 'right'; to know what to do.

No faith is required to be a member of that organization. You know that right? Not even among the priests is faith required. I am not saying that no one in the organization believes in God; only that you don't have to believe in God to be in that organization.

So only you can state what your faith relies on?

Please note that I was responding to you telling me what my faith relied upon.

So again, isn't that more based on "the Light of Tammy"? How convenient. And how can one then test what you state? Shall we just take your word for it?

See, you say things like this, and I am left with little choice but to believe that you are not truly reading my posts. Skimming perhaps. Seeing what you want to see, skipping over the parts that you might not want to see.


One can test anything that I (or anyone else states) against Christ (ask Him), against love (since God is love), and against what is written (beginning with what Christ has said, because Christ is the Truth).

No one need take my word for anything. One can (and should) ask Christ so that one can know what is or is not true.


Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

[RightReason]

[Replying to tam]

You 'didn't really want to take the time to go item by item

The truth is your argument was simply more of the same, which is why I didn't feel the need to respond line by line. You claimed the Scripture I cited should not have been interpreted the way the Church interpreted it. Many times now on this thread I have pointed to the Scripture, context, history, and reason as to why certain passages are interpreted the way they are. You however disagree. You claim Scripture means something different than what I demonstrated. I'm still not quite sure why you think that is somehow sufficient.

No suggestion to look to Christ.

Completely false. My entire argument calls for looking to Christ. You want to look to Christ sometimes, except when He tells us to listen to His Church.

(Not even a suggestion to look at what was written - of course that would be because what is written actually disproves the author's claim).

Absolutely wrong again. I am absolutely appealing to what is written. Like I said, I think it is very clear from the passages I linked that Peter was the leader and it is merely your opinion that Scripture shows something different.

Instead, look anywhere and to anyone except Christ.

Strawman. I too look to Christ. Tell me again how you can be so sure what you believe comes from Christ?

Ahhh... but that is not what you demonstrate.

Wrong again. I have demonstrated that I am doing exactly what Christ instructed us to do.

See, you say things like this, and I am left with little choice but to believe that you are not truly reading my posts. Skimming perhaps. Seeing what you want to see, skipping over the parts that you might not want to see.

Right back at you Tammy. I am left with little choice but to believe that you are not truly reading my posts, or you would understand why your comments below are what all of Christendom believes as well, and yet is utterly divided with regards to their teachings and beliefs. Soooooooooo, I will ask you once again, how might we figure this out?

One can test anything that I (or anyone else states) against Christ (ask Him), against love (since God is love), and against what is written (beginning with what Christ has said, because Christ is the Truth).

This is exactly what the Catholic Church, Protestants, Baptists, Methodists, JW's, Lutherans, Presbyterians, Church of the Body of Christ, etc state and believe. And they would all be correct. Of course as human beings we can misinterpret Scripture (do you disagree?), or think God is telling us something He might not be -- mistaking our own conclusion for His (do you disagree?). For these reasons your "putting something to the test" is incomplete. Christ knew our human nature and knew how much we human beings need things spelled out for us. Which is exactly why He chose to leave us One, Authoritative earthly Church.

You never seem to be able to answer my question how soooo many professed Christians can believe sooooo many different things than you do. Do you think you are smarter? Holier? Have a deeper relationship with Christ than others? Do you think you love God more? Do you think God loves you more?

Personally, I know I need all the help I can get. I plan to use all the help Christ desires to give us. That might include acknowledging He appointed others as leaders and His special servants. I have no problem with that and actually thank God for that!!!!!!!

NOTHING ELSE MAKES SENSE

Peace again to you

[onewithhim]

[Replying to tam]

You 'didn't really want to take the time to go item by item

The truth is your argument was simply more of the same, which is why I didn't feel the need to respond line by line. You claimed the Scripture I cited should not have been interpreted the way the Church interpreted it. Many times now on this thread I have pointed to the Scripture, context, history, and reason as to why certain passages are interpreted the way they are. You however disagree. You claim Scripture means something different than what I demonstrated. I'm still not quite sure why you think that is somehow sufficient.

No suggestion to look to Christ.

Completely false. My entire argument calls for looking to Christ. You want to look to Christ sometimes, except when He tells us to listen to His Church.

(Not even a suggestion to look at what was written - of course that would be because what is written actually disproves the author's claim).

Absolutely wrong again. I am absolutely appealing to what is written. Like I said, I think it is very clear from the passages I linked that Peter was the leader and it is merely your opinion that Scripture shows something different.

Instead, look anywhere and to anyone except Christ.

Strawman. I too look to Christ. Tell me again how you can be so sure what you believe comes from Christ?

Ahhh... but that is not what you demonstrate.

Wrong again. I have demonstrated that I am doing exactly what Christ instructed us to do.

See, you say things like this, and I am left with little choice but to believe that you are not truly reading my posts. Skimming perhaps. Seeing what you want to see, skipping over the parts that you might not want to see.

Right back at you Tammy. I am left with little choice but to believe that you are not truly reading my posts, or you would understand why your comments below are what all of Christendom believes as well, and yet is utterly divided with regards to their teachings and beliefs. Soooooooooo, I will ask you once again, how might we figure this out?

One can test anything that I (or anyone else states) against Christ (ask Him), against love (since God is love), and against what is written (beginning with what Christ has said, because Christ is the Truth).

This is exactly what the Catholic Church, Protestants, Baptists, Methodists, JW's, Lutherans, Presbyterians, Church of the Body of Christ, etc state and believe. And they would all be correct. Of course as human beings we can misinterpret Scripture (do you disagree?), or think God is telling us something He might not be -- mistaking our own conclusion for His (do you disagree?). For these reasons your "putting something to the test" is incomplete. Christ knew our human nature and knew how much we human beings need things spelled out for us. Which is exactly why He chose to leave us One, Authoritative earthly Church.

You never seem to be able to answer my question how soooo many professed Christians can believe sooooo many different things than you do. Do you think you are smarter? Holier? Have a deeper relationship with Christ than others? Do you think you love God more? Do you think God loves you more?

Personally, I know I need all the help I can get. I plan to use all the help Christ desires to give us. That might include acknowledging He appointed others as leaders and His special servants. I have no problem with that and actually thank God for that!!!!!!!

NOTHING ELSE MAKES SENSE

Peace again to you

Peter was not the leader of the core spiritual body in Jerusalem. James seems to be the leader. (See Acts 15:13-20.)

Christ left us one authoritative Church, and he said himself that it would not be the majority, but FEW. What small Church exists today on Earth and even though small its members adhere to Christ's teachings? The large Catholic Church does not, even though a majority of Christendom. (Matt.7: 13,14)

Please remind me as to which church you are following. Is it the FEW on the road to life, or the majority on the road to destruction?


.

[RightReason]

[Replying to onewithhim]

.

Christ left us one authoritative Church, and he said himself that it would not be the majority, but FEW.

Please show me where you think in Scripture Christ said His Church would be small? If you are referring to things like . . .

13 Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. 14 But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.

I must say that is not the same thing as saying His Church would be small or that He desired His Church to be small. Why do JWs go door to door to spread the news, if you know God has proclaimed and desired a small following? If billions of people suddenly were drawn to the JWs, do you think that would negate the reasoning that the JWs could be Christs Church? Such illogic abounds! There are many reasons why JW are not Christs established Church and we could discuss that in greater detail, but I can assure you it is not because of her numbers " LOL!

What small Church exists today on Earth and even though small its members adhere to Christ's teachings?

The Catholic Church and as far as fully adhering to the teachings of Jesus -- only the Catholic Church.

Please define small? You do realize small is relative, right? If you take the entire population of the world and all those who have already lived and died on this planet, one could certainly say those who have followed Christ are few and if you take that same population and include all those who have gone before us and compare it to those who have been Catholic, that would be considered really few. So, if thats what you mean by few, sure Christs Church could be considered consisting of few. But if that is what you mean then it certainly doesnt exclude the Catholic Church from being Christs Church on earth, rather it points to it.

Please remind me as to which church you are following. Is it the FEW on the road to life, or the majority on the road to destruction?

Sure. Christs established Church " His Catholic Church.

[onewithhim]

[Replying to onewithhim]

.

Christ left us one authoritative Church, and he said himself that it would not be the majority, but FEW.

Please show me where you think in Scripture Christ said His Church would be small? If you are referring to things like . . .

13 Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. 14 But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.

I must say that is not the same thing as saying His Church would be small or that He desired His Church to be small. Why do JWs go door to door to spread the news, if you know God has proclaimed and desired a small following? If billions of people suddenly were drawn to the JWs, do you think that would negate the reasoning that the JWs could be Christs Church? Such illogic abounds! There are many reasons why JW are not Christs established Church and we could discuss that in greater detail, but I can assure you it is not because of her numbers " LOL!

What small Church exists today on Earth and even though small its members adhere to Christ's teachings?

The Catholic Church and as far as fully adhering to the teachings of Jesus -- only the Catholic Church.

Please define small? You do realize small is relative, right? If you take the entire population of the world and all those who have already lived and died on this planet, one could certainly say those who have followed Christ are few and if you take that same population and include all those who have gone before us and compare it to those who have been Catholic, that would be considered really few. So, if thats what you mean by few, sure Christs Church could be considered consisting of few. But if that is what you mean then it certainly doesnt exclude the Catholic Church from being Christs Church on earth, rather it points to it.

Please remind me as to which church you are following. Is it the FEW on the road to life, or the majority on the road to destruction?

Sure. Christs established Church " His Catholic Church.

If Christ said that those on the road to life would be few, it logically follows that his Church would be relatively small---compared to the other religions of the world that would obviously be on the broad road. It's just using our brain a little bit, you know?

God doesn't wish to have a small following. He wants all of mankind to be saved, and that is why JWs go door-to-door. He is giving everyone a chance to respond to His message. Yes, "small" is relative. Of course! There are 8 million followers of Jehovah and His Son on Earth today, compared with 2 or 3 billion in false Christianity. The Catholic Church makes up the large part of that 3 billion.

[RightReason]

[Replying to onewithhim]

Wow! Do you actually listen to yourself? Your argument is absurd. You are seriously arguing that since there are 8 million JWs and 1.2 billion Catholics JWs are Christs Church? I dont know why I am surprised that your shaky religion would actually spout such an illogical conclusion. The anti-Catholic drivel runs deep in this one. At least I am enjoying watching you show the warped thought process within your religion.

[onewithhim]

[Replying to onewithhim]

Wow! Do you actually listen to yourself? Your argument is absurd. You are seriously arguing that since there are 8 million JWs and 1.2 billion Catholics JWs are Christs Church? I dont know why I am surprised that your shaky religion would actually spout such an illogical conclusion. The anti-Catholic drivel runs deep in this one. At least I am enjoying watching you show the warped thought process within your religion.

It's sad that you can't follow my "warped" argument, because I offered a very logical schematic to show why I believe the way I do.

What is absurd about what I said? Can you be specific, without merely condemning my thought processes?

1) Jesus said that his true followers would be few in number (Matt.7:13,14), and he indicated that the men of the rotten tree (v.18) would come to him in the last days and whine to him: "Didn't we prophesy in your name and perform powerful works in your name?" In other words---we are your true Church, Lord! But Jesus will say, "I never knew you!! Depart from me, you evildoers." (Matt.7:21-23, NAB)

2) Who is fulfilling Jesus' words at Matthew 7? Without resorting to naming the groups involved, let's just look at the facts. There are 3 billion people claiming to be Christian....Catholics, Protestants, Mormons, etc., etc.. We won't home in on any one particular church. That's a lot of people, alive today. There's another group that doesn't align itself with those others, yet claims Christ as their Lord. They are just a handful, compared to the 3 billion self-proclaimed Christians. Now according to Christ's analogy in Matthew chapter 7, which group would be on the broad road and would be considered "many"?

Does anyone else on this thread think that my thoughts are warped? Or can you see the logic in how I'm seeing Matthew 7?

[RightReason]

[Replying to onewithhim]

I offered a very logical schematic to show why I believe the way I do.

No, you claimed certain Scripture like Matt 7:13-14 and Matt 7:21 show Jesus said you will know His Church because it will be few in number. Yet when one properly reads Matthew that is not the take away.

WARNING: Some people on these forums project what they think certain passages to mean. Please read those particular Scripture passages, as well as Scripture as a whole to see what is actually being said.

Who is fulfilling Jesus' words at Matthew 7? Without resorting to naming the groups involved,

You think because your religion pretends it has no name, it is exempt from being a religion? Theres that awesome logic again.

[onewithhim]

[Replying to onewithhim]

Wow! Do you actually listen to yourself? Your argument is absurd. You are seriously arguing that since there are 8 million JWs and 1.2 billion Catholics JWs are Christs Church? I dont know why I am surprised that your shaky religion would actually spout such an illogical conclusion. The anti-Catholic drivel runs deep in this one. At least I am enjoying watching you show the warped thought process within your religion.

It's sad that you can't follow my "warped" argument, because I offered a very logical schematic to show why I believe the way I do.

What is absurd about what I said? Can you be specific, without merely condemning my thought processes?

1) Jesus said that his true followers would be few in number (Matt.7:13,14), and he indicated that the men of the rotten tree (v.18) would come to him in the last days and whine to him: "Didn't we prophesy in your name and perform powerful works in your name?" In other words---we are your true Church, Lord! But Jesus will say, "I never knew you!! Depart from me, you evildoers." (Matt.7:21-23, NAB)

2) Who is fulfilling Jesus' words at Matthew 7? Without resorting to naming the groups involved, let's just look at the facts. There are 3 billion people claiming to be Christian....Catholics, Protestants, Mormons, etc., etc.. We won't home in on any one particular church. That's a lot of people, alive today. There's another group that doesn't align itself with those others, yet claims Christ as their Lord. They are just a handful, compared to the 3 billion self-proclaimed Christians. Now according to Christ's analogy in Matthew chapter 7, which group would be on the broad road and would be considered "many"?

Does anyone else on this thread think that my thoughts are warped? Or can you see the logic in how I'm seeing Matthew 7?

That is my final post on this argument stirred up by RightReason. I haven't gotten any meaningful reply from him. It would be interesting to know how he interprets Matt.7:13,14.

[RightReason]

[Replying to post 719 by onewithhim]

That is my final post on this argument stirred up by RightReason. I haven't gotten any meaningful reply from him. It would be interesting to know how he interprets Matt.7:13,14.

13 Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. 14 But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it. "Matthew 7:13-14

RightReason interprets this in several ways. First, IMO, it means the road to Hell is easy, but heaven requires sacrifice, obedience, commitment, responsibility. It encourages us to not get distracted by the easy road of earthly pleasures, popularity, etc. The passage points out it isnt always easy to live according to the ways of God and many of us stumble and get lost in this vast world, but if we realize the gate is narrow that might help us stay focused. I would also put a plug in here for this passage indicating the need of Confession and Gods grace. Life can be a tough, rocky road, but with Gods help we can find our way. Again, this passage is talking about the road (IOW, the road or way to heaven is narrow " meaning there is ONE way) and not that the destination itself is narrow/small.

Nowhere would I interpret this passage to be saying God wanted only a small amount of people to be saved, most of us will go to hell, so make sure you are part of a smaller obscure church because that could mean you will be one of the few who makes it.

Also, Tammy, I am not a he. I am a woman. I am a wife and mother and didnt recognize the Catholic Church as Christs Church on earth until I was out of college. At this time, I read more books, talked to more people, spent more time in prayer and in conversation with our Lord than seems would be physically possible to have done so unless the Holy Spirit was involved. I looked into other faiths and religions and NOTHING made more sense or was more reasonable then the Catholic Church. I found time and time again every other religion/faith was an off shoot of Christs original Church. They lacked the marks of the true Church. They also werent nearly as beautiful, inspiring, or logical in their teachings.

If someone would have told me in my early 20s that I would be a practicing Catholic with 8 children who saw the beauty and truth in such Church teachings on Confession, the true presence in the Holy Eucharist, sex, marriage, contraception, heaven, etc. I would have fallen off my chair laughing. But I have realized no other Church on the planet teaches these beautiful truths and they all point to our loving, merciful, Father in heaven as their author. Life is beautiful and I am passionate about my faith because I see both the beauty and reason in my home (that is your home as well) the Catholic Church.

Peace.