Obey OT Laws

[Donray]

When did God say the we do not need to obey his laws as written in the OT?

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 1 by Donray]

Matthew 5:
[17] Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
[18] For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

The best way to explain this is to the idea of keeping a promise. If someone said "I did not come to break the promise I came to keep (fulfill) it", what happens to the promise after it has been kept?

To illustrate: A father promises to take his daughter to the zoo on Sunday. From Monday to Saturday, the promise is there. If on Sunday he doesn't take the girl to the zoo, he has broken (destroyed) the promise. If he takes her to the zoo as promised, what is the condition of the promise the day after? broken or fullfilled?

One definition of "fulfill" is to "bring [something] to an end" so in effectively, Jesus said I didn't come to destroy the law, I came to bring it [the law] to an end.



JW

[bluethread]

One definition of "fulfill" is to "bring [something] to an end" so in effectively, Jesus said I didn't come to destroy the law, I came to bring it [the law] to an end.



JW

One of several possibilities does not lead to a conclusion. Given the context of HaTorah, the two definitions associated with the third usage are more reasonable, to convert into reality, or develop the full potentialities of. He came to exemplify how it should be done and clarify what is meant.

[Donray]

Since Jesus was a Jew and followed the Laws I think that fulfill means to support to utmost.

Please explain why a Jew would not want to follow the Laws?

You choose the one difition out of four that stifiy your understand yet the other three definition don't agree with your view point.

From: https://www.ucg.org/bible-study-tools/b ... ed-to-obey

In Matthew 19:16, Jesus was asked what must be done to inherit eternal life. His answer: If you want to enter into life, keep the commandments (Matthew 19:17). Jesus then listed several, including enough of the Ten Commandments to make clear which commandments He meant: You shall not murder, You shall not commit adultery, You shall not steal, You shall not bear false witness, Honor your father and your mother, and, You shall love your neighbor as yourself (Matthew 19:18-19).
....
Today some people will tell you that keeping the commandments was fulfilled by Christ and obeying Gods law is therefore no longer required. But notice what Jesus Himself had to say about this idea: Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill (Matthew 5:17).

There are more saying from Jesus about keeping the Laws.

Why don't you respond to the above and then we can move on to other versus.

[2timothy316]

One definition of "fulfill" is to "bring [something] to an end" so in effectively, Jesus said I didn't come to destroy the law, I came to bring it [the law] to an end.


JW

One of several possibilities does not lead to a conclusion. Given the context of HaTorah, the two definitions associated with the third usage are more reasonable, to convert into reality, or develop the full potentialities of. He came to exemplify how it should be done and clarify what is meant.

Fortunately the Bible doesn't let us guess what Jesus fulfilled. Jesus fulfilled the coming of God's anointed one to bring comfort to all.

"The spirit of the Sovereign Lord Jehovah is upon me, Because Jehovah anointed me to declare good news to the meek. He sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, To proclaim liberty to the captives And the wide opening of the eyes to the prisoners, To proclaim the year of Jehovahs goodwill And the day of vengeance of our God, To comfort all who mourn." Isaiah 61:1, 2

"With that he [Jesus] rolled up the scroll, handed it back to the attendant, and sat down; and the eyes of all in the synagogue were intently fixed on him. Then he began to say to them: Today this scripture that you just heard is fulfilled. - Luke 4:20, 21

[bluethread]

One definition of "fulfill" is to "bring [something] to an end" so in effectively, Jesus said I didn't come to destroy the law, I came to bring it [the law] to an end.


JW

One of several possibilities does not lead to a conclusion. Given the context of HaTorah, the two definitions associated with the third usage are more reasonable, to convert into reality, or develop the full potentialities of. He came to exemplify how it should be done and clarify what is meant.

Fortunately the Bible doesn't let us guess what Jesus fulfilled. Jesus fulfilled the coming of God's anointed one to bring comfort to all.

"The spirit of the Sovereign Lord Jehovah is upon me, Because Jehovah anointed me to declare good news to the meek. He sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, To proclaim liberty to the captives And the wide opening of the eyes to the prisoners, To proclaim the year of Jehovahs goodwill And the day of vengeance of our God, To comfort all who mourn." Isaiah 61:1, 2

"With that he [Jesus] rolled up the scroll, handed it back to the attendant, and sat down; and the eyes of all in the synagogue were intently fixed on him. Then he began to say to them: Today this scripture that you just heard is fulfilled. - Luke 4:20, 21

Yes, as I said, He converted that passage into reality and developed it's full potentialities. So, how would you say that relates to being Torah submissive?

[tam]

What about all the other LAWS???????

Matthew 5:17-19
Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Peace to you Donray!

I bolded the two parts of that verse that show that not one jolt or tittle would pass until all be fulfilled. Fulfilling the law and the prophets is something Christ said that HE came to do.


We are not under the old law, which was a part of the old covenant that Israel made with God through Moses. Most of us were never a part of the old covenant to begin with. Christ instituted a new covenant. Part of being in the new covenant is believing in Christ (which also means keeping HIS commands - how can a person state that they truly believe in Him and yet do not do what He says? As Christ said, 'why do you call me Lord, yet do not do what I say?').

And the law that is written upon the heart (not stone tablets or paper) is LOVE. As Christ taught:

Love God with your whole heart, mind, soul; love your neighbor as yourself; love your enemies; love one another as Christ loved us.

The one who keeps His commands is the one who loves Him. And we love because they loved us first.



Peace to you, and to your household,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

[bluethread]

We are not under the old law, which was a part of the old covenant that Israel made with God through Moses. Most of us were never a part of the old covenant to begin with. Christ instituted a new covenant. Part of being in the new covenant is believing in Christ (which also means keeping HIS commands - how can a person state that they truly believe in Him and yet do not do what He says? As Christ said, 'why do you call me Lord, yet do not do what I say?').

And the law that is written upon the heart (not stone tablets or paper) is LOVE. As Christ taught:

Love God with your whole heart, mind, soul; love your neighbor as yourself; love your enemies; love one another as Christ loved us.

The one who keeps His commands is the one who loves Him. And we love because they loved us first.

Yes, but what is that, to whom is it with and how do you know those things? Are you aware that though the rabbi's identified 613 commandments in the Tanakh(OT), Dake found 1050 in the Apostolic Writings(NT)? Are you also aware that "love God with your whole heart, mind, soul"(Deut. 6:5) and "love your neighbor as yourself" (Lev. 19:18) are from the Tanakh(OT)? It looks to me like the "new covenant" requires the keeping of more commandments, not less. Again, who are the parties to this "new covenant"?

[tam]

Peace to you BT,

We are not under the old law, which was a part of the old covenant that Israel made with God through Moses. Most of us were never a part of the old covenant to begin with. Christ instituted a new covenant. Part of being in the new covenant is believing in Christ (which also means keeping HIS commands - how can a person state that they truly believe in Him and yet do not do what He says? As Christ said, 'why do you call me Lord, yet do not do what I say?').

And the law that is written upon the heart (not stone tablets or paper) is LOVE. As Christ taught:

Love God with your whole heart, mind, soul; love your neighbor as yourself; love your enemies; love one another as Christ loved us.

The one who keeps His commands is the one who loves Him. And we love because they loved us first.

Yes, but what is that, to whom is it with and how do you know those things?

What is WHAT, Bluethread, and to whom is WHAT with? Could you please clarify for me? Thank you!

Are you aware that though the rabbi's identified 613 commandments in the Tanakh(OT), Dake found 1050 in the Apostolic Writings(NT)? Are you also aware that "love God with your whole heart, mind, soul"(Deut. 6:5) and "love your neighbor as yourself" (Lev. 19:18) are from the Tanakh(OT)?

I am not aware of who Dake is or anything that Dake found. But I am aware that LOVE does not murder; nor commit adultery; nor bear false witness against one's neighbor.

So of course there will be things that overlap.

But there were also things in the law that were made easier for people to accept, due to their hard hearts (like the law that Moses gave on divorce); and there things that were overlooked in favor of judgment (such as mercy, which was supposed to be one of the most important matters of the law); and there were things that the people had been taught, but that Christ told them something different.

"You have heard it said, but I tell you now..."

It looks to me like the "new covenant" requires the keeping of more commandments, not less.

We are to obey Christ - which includes loving God with our whole heart; loving our neighbor as ourselves; loving our enemies; loving one another as He loved us; showing mercy; not judging; forgiving; etc. But of course love also covers matters such as showing mercy and forgiveness.


But if we are in the new covenant, and we do fail, then we are covered by Christ; we obey because we love; not because we fear any kind of judgment. We already have forgiveness in Him.

Again, who are the parties to this "new covenant"?

"Israel", those who believe in Christ (His Bride)... Christ... God.

Christ is the mediator of this new covenant. The new covenant is in HIS blood.


Who do you think the parties of this new covenant are? Or do you not think there is a new covenant (since you put the term in quotations)?

Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

[Donray]

your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

So, Christ has slaves. Why do you want to be a slave to anyone?


God wants mindless obedient slaves.

By the way, you failed to respond to all the bible saying that support obeying the OT Laws. Why did you just select one? Is the only one that your leaders told you about?

The link had many things where Jesus says to keep the Laws of the Torah (OT of the Christian bible).

[bluethread]

Yes, but what is that, to whom is it with and how do you know those things?

What is WHAT, Bluethread, and to whom is WHAT with? Could you please clarify for me? Thank you!

The "new covenant".

Are you aware that though the rabbi's identified 613 commandments in the Tanakh(OT), Dake found 1050 in the Apostolic Writings(NT)? Are you also aware that "love God with your whole heart, mind, soul"(Deut. 6:5) and "love your neighbor as yourself" (Lev. 19:18) are from the Tanakh(OT)?

I am not aware of who Dake is or anything that Dake found. But I am aware that LOVE does not murder; nor commit adultery; nor bear false witness against one's neighbor.

So of course there will be things that overlap.

Well, not only is there overlap, love is already in HaTorah. Dake is a translator and commentator who took the time to identify all of the commandments in the Apostolic Writings. He found more, not less commandments.

But there were also things in the law that were made easier for people to accept, due to their hard hearts (like the law that Moses gave on divorce); and there things that were overlooked in favor of judgment (such as mercy, which was supposed to be one of the most important matters of the law); and there were things that the people had been taught, but that Christ told them something different.

"You have heard it said, but I tell you now..."

Yes, rabbinic rules and interpretations were added to the commandments and Yeshua provided more and different rabbinic interpretations. So, again, it appears that the followers of Yeshua have more commandment to follow, not less.

It looks to me like the "new covenant" requires the keeping of more commandments, not less.

We are to obey Christ - which includes loving God with our whole heart; loving our neighbor as ourselves; loving our enemies; loving one another as He loved us; showing mercy; not judging; forgiving; etc. But of course love also covers matters such as showing mercy and forgiveness.

Again the first two on your list are explicitly in the Tanakh. Now, depending on what you are referring to with the rest, they are addressed on HaTorah. Yeshua does expound on them, but they are there.

But if we are in the new covenant, and we do fail, then we are covered by Christ; we obey because we love; not because we fear any kind of judgment. We already have forgiveness in Him.

How is it that they are covered by HaMeshiach and how is that different from how they are covered in HaTorah?

Again, who are the parties to this "new covenant"?

"Israel", those who believe in Christ (His Bride)... Christ... God.

Christ is the mediator of this new covenant. The new covenant is in HIS blood.


Who do you think the parties of this new covenant are? Or do you not think there is a new covenant (since you put the term in quotations)?

The reason I put it in quotations is because I am not sure exactly what you are referring to. I also am aware that the concept is in both HaTorah and the prophets.