Paradise on Earth

[onewithhim]

When I learned that the Bible speaks of a restored Garden of Eden and the restoration of mankind to the perfection and endless life that Adam forfeited, I was thrilled. Who doesn't want to keep living on this beautiful earth, with our loved ones, and being able to do all the things we love to do---endlessly?

If God said to you today, "When do you want to die?" would you say "now!!"? I don't think very many people would say that.

We CAN live forever here on Earth. The Bible tells us that we can.

Matthew 5:5
Psalm 37:9-11,29

[onewithhim]

[Replying to onewithhim]

What you have posted is a joke. Your “many� critics of MT are not so many. Even your initial critic was simply responding to Christopher Hitchen’s criticism. She did not go to India nor did she ever meet MT. Her remarks are based off of Hitchen’s remarks, who we all know has an ax to grind. And some of your other sources are doing the same thing. They are simply reporting on these very few reports criticizing MT. To view anything that you have posted as honorable journalism is a joke.

MT had many more supporters than she did critics.

Among the 124 Awards Received

Padmashree Award (from the President of India) August 1962
Pope John XXIII Peace Prize January 1971
John F. Kennedy International Award September 1971
Jawahalal Nehru Award for International Understanding November 1972
Templeton Prize for "Progress in Religion" April 1973
Nobel Peace Prize December 1979
Bharat Ratna (Jewel of India) March 1980
Order of Merit (from Queen Elizabeth) November 1983
Gold Medal of the Soviet Peace Committee August 1987
United States Congressional Gold Medal June 1997

Most of what you posted was the same thing recycled in a few different articles, but all from the same few individuals who issued the complaint in the first place.

Hospitals in 3rd world countries will never meet the standards we would expect here in the western world. It reminds me of some of the comments I heard when choosing to give birth to 3 of my children at home. Critics and naysayers would gasp at the thought of not being in a sterile hospital. They would question that one could safely give birth at home because it wasn’t how they pictured giving birth in their head.

My bedroom clearly did not have the equipment, the medicine or drugs, or medical specialist that they thought necessary and vital. Therefore they judged my situation as risky/unsafe/or even negligent. Just because I chose a different route than the majority did not make my way wrong or bad and their way right or better. Despite thinking otherwise, MT was able to care for and provide for her patients and give them what they needed. And IMO probably did so far better than any state of the art high tech hospital could have, because she added love to her services.

Some of my reasons for choosing homebirth were to have nothing get in the way of that initial bonding with my baby and to have my whole family more a part of the beautiful miracle occurring at that moment. I wasn’t being careless or putting anyone at risk. I did my homework. I had excellent pre natal care and knew if there was any risk to having my baby at home. With that in mind I chose what I did because in my opinion it enabled me to give my child what I thought was important. MT was doing the very same thing. Maybe a home birth wouldn’t have been right for you or something you wouldn’t have chosen or felt was important. That’s fine. But don’t bash MT for actually doing what she felt was important and the way she felt it ought to be done. She was there helping. If you felt she should have been skipping the witness to Christ and amping up the morpheme drip instead that is entirely your opinion, but you have to at least give her credit for taking action, sacrificing, and doing something about a problem that no one else seemed to be too concerned about.

I also would add that sounds like you have no understanding about her thoughts and views on suffering. In no way did she wish to see others suffer. She merely was stating the truth that the world often fails to see the meaning in suffering and if you can’t understand the difference then you simply will never understand what MT or Christ was trying to do.

No, my "initial" critic was not going solely on Christopher Hitchens' remarks. In fact his remarks were briefly skimmed over. She was reporting on a recent study by education and religious scholars that examined Mother Teresa's writings, and interviews with people who worked with the Missionaries of Charity. I listed MANY other sources of information about the lack of real medical help and the filth of the hospices. One doctor said that she had enough money to build a new state-of-the-art medical center!

You had scoffed at the idea that I had ANY back-up for my statement that Mother Teresa was a troubled soul and that she enjoyed seeing her patients suffer. I have shown you a lot of back-up for those sentiments. You just don't want to believe them, which is your prerogative.

Dr. Aroup Chatterjee, a physician who worked in the Calcutta slums and even with the actual Missionaries of Charity, has admitted that he is practically a lone critic in his quest to broadcast the whole truth about Teresa. If you took the time to read what he has to say, you would see why no one in the West or even in India wants to face the hard facts about the famous nun. She is a media icon and brings lots of publicity to India in a positive vein, even though hiding sad truths.

You scoff at media giants like The Washington Post, CNN, The Globe and Mail, Lancet and The New York Times. What kind of sources are you looking for that would satisfy you as to the truth of the matter?

I said nothing about "skipping the witness for Christ." I personally feel that that is the most important thing in any situation. If she did that, fine. But along with that there should have been real help for people, not just prayers and smiles. (I wonder what her witnessing for Christ really accomplished when she told her patients that Christ was pleased that they were continuing to suffer but were bearing it.)

I understand very well what Christ really is doing in the world today. The main thing is that he is directing his followers to preach to the world about his new government that is coming, which will get rid of suffering and death permanently. That is "the good news of the Kingdom," or, "the gospel of the kingdom." Sadly, MT didn't understand that, and I think that is why she was so spiritually demoralized in the end.

"And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole world, for a testimony to all nations, and then shall the consummation come." (Matt.24:14, Douay-Rheims Version)

"In the days of those kingdoms the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that shall never be destroyed...and it shall break in pieces, and shall consume all these kingdoms, and itself shall stand for ever." (Daniel 2:44, Douay)

"And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes: and death shall be no more, nor mourning, nor crying, nor sorrow shall be any more, for the former things are passed away." (Apocalypse 21:4, Douay)


.

[RightReason]

[Replying to post 741 by onewithhim]

You had scoffed at the idea that I had ANY back-up for my statement that Mother Teresa was a troubled soul and that she enjoyed seeing her patients suffer.

Yes I did because you didn’t. Where was the evidence that MT was a troubled soul? Must have missed all that evidence. And where was this evidence that she enjoyed seeing her patients suffer? Nothing you have posted indicates any such thing. MT did what she could with what she could. Your comments are like telling someone who volunteers to take care of a group of def children by spending time with them, teaching them sign language, loving them, telling them how special and important they are, and feeding them that that person must love to see def people suffer because the person did not make sure every def person she encountered received a cochlear implant from an expensive surgeon in a luxury hospital. Again, IMO, that would be to miss the point of MT’s efforts. It would also fail to miss the point that MT, unlike most of us, was actually doing something! She could have chosen a much simpler life and ignored the problems in India, but instead she made a difference and changed lives, but yeah let’s focus on how unimpressed we were with the simple hospital.

Dr. Aroup Chatterjee, a physician who worked in the Calcutta slums and even with the actual Missionaries of Charity, has admitted that he is practically a lone critic in his quest to broadcast the whole truth about Teresa

And rightly so. Most who knew her, worked with her, and saw her work got it.

you would see why no one in the West or even in India wants to face the hard facts about the famous nun.

Sorry but this made me laugh. If there was actually something there to bash MT I’m pretty sure no one would have a hard time about “facing the hard facts�. Why would they? No one would want to send money to someone they didn’t think was helping, and India would not welcome her if they felt she wasn’t helping. So your comments are silly.

You scoff at media giants like The Washington Post, CNN, The Globe and Mail, Lancet and The New York Times. What kind of sources are you looking for that would satisfy you as to the truth of the matter?

Those media outlets are not the sources. Those saying the negative stuff about MT were just a handful of individuals like Christopher Hitchens and those media outlets printed their articles. I’m sure if O.J. Simpson or Jeffrey Dahmer wrote an article they would print it as well. How does that have anything to do with whether what Simpson or Dahmer said would be credible?

I said nothing about "skipping the witness for Christ." I personally feel that that is the most important thing in any situation. If she did that, fine. But along with that there should have been real help for people, not just prayers and smiles.

Again, what’s your definition of “real help�. Showing someone they are a son or daughter of Christ and giving them dignity is real help. And not only did she do that but she also fed them and took care of their medical needs. Where were all the others?

I wonder what her witnessing for Christ really accomplished when she told her patients that Christ was pleased that they were continuing to suffer but were bearing it.)

Show me where she told a patient that Christ was pleased that they were suffering.

I understand very well what Christ really is doing in the world today. The main thing is that he is directing his followers to preach to the world about his new government that is coming, which will get rid of suffering and death permanently. That is "the good news of the Kingdom," or, "the gospel of the kingdom."

Careful now. Some could take that quote of yours and conclude that you don’t have a problem with people suffering here and now on earth. Maybe you are pleased and happy that people are suffering now because your real concern is that the kingdom of God is at hand which will eventually end all suffering. Is that why you didn’t bother yourself to go to India like MT did to help the sick and dying? You must not care much about what people are going thru now. You must be more concerned about your future literal paradise earth. I mean that is certainly what I should conclude from your above quote, right?

Sadly, MT didn't understand that, and I think that is why she was so spiritually demoralized in the end.

Nice empty psychoanalysis of MT. I can do the same to you. See my comments above. Is that fair?

"And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole world, for a testimony to all nations, and then shall the consummation come." (Matt.24:14, Douay-Rheims Version)

"In the days of those kingdoms the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that shall never be destroyed...and it shall break in pieces, and shall consume all these kingdoms, and itself shall stand for ever." (Daniel 2:44, Douay)

"And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes: and death shall be no more, nor mourning, nor crying, nor sorrow shall be any more, for the former things are passed away." (Apocalypse 21:4, Douay)

Wow! More proof you are pleased with present pain and suffering we all endure. Clearly, you think we were all meant to suffer until God wipes away our tears. Clearly, this warped philosophy and outlook of JW’s prevent them from actually helping those in need today. They’d rather waste their time knocking on doors to tell the middle class folk they won’t get to enjoy an earthly paradise if they don’t join their organization then spend time actually taking care of the sick and the dying among the poorest of the poor.

See how easy it is to misconstrue what someone says and project one’s own bias and bigotry onto others? Maybe now you will understand why your slander about MT is nonsense lacking any substance.

[onewithhim]

I will argue with you no further. I feel that I have answered your condescending questions as well as can be done, and it is a shame that you can see no value in my information. Fine. That's up to you. I hope that others here will see the point of what I've said.

You want to support Goliath, and nothing will move you to reason. I will stay with David, like Dr. Chatterjee, the minority, and be content that someday the truth will come out and there will be no more room for arguing. Until then, I bid you farewell. I won't argue any more.


"Upon you I shall bring your own ways, and in the midst of you your own detestable things will come to be; and you people will have to know that I am Jehovah." (Ezekiel 7:4)

[RightReason]

[Replying to post 743 by onewithhim]

You want to support Goliath, and nothing will move you to reason. I will stay with David

Ha, ha, ha . . . and yet you have nothing of substance to compare Mother Teresa to Goliath. LOL! The image is amusing. You’re very entertaining.

[onewithhim]

I'm relieved to have ended that argument. Regretfully, sometimes you have to put people on "ignore" or they just keep on with the same old unreasonableness.

Anyway, I started this thread to extol the promise of Jehovah that mankind will be able to live on Earth in paradise conditions, even though Adam dropped the ball thousands of years ago. God's original purpose was not thwarted. He gave the earth to man, and man will still have the honor of making it into a paradise. What reasonable person would not want to live in a paradise? Most people I know love the idea of vacationing in Hawaii. How about a whole planet that's paradise?

"For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth...he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited." (Isaiah 45:18, KJV)

"The heaven, even the heavens, are the LORD's: but the earth hath he given to the children of men." (Psalm 115:16, KJV)

"And God blessed them [the man & woman], and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it; and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth....The LORD God took the man, and put him into the Garden of Eden, to dress it and to keep it." (Genesis 1:28 & 2:15, KJV) Adam was a master gardener!

"So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void; but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it." (Isaiah 55:11, KJV)


Clearly, God spoke to Adam what He wanted accomplished, and even though Adam disobeyed and failed, what God wanted to be done will be done. He doesn't talk for nothing.

[RightReason]

[Replying to onewithhim]

Regretfully, sometimes you have to put people on "ignore" or they just keep on with the same old unreasonableness.

And yet here we get the same old unreasonableness that keeps being repeated . . .

Anyway, I started this thread to extol the promise of Jehovah that mankind will be able to live on Earth in paradise conditions

Scripture tells us heaven and earth shall pass away. And Scripture tells us, “For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face; now I know in part, but then I will know fully just as I also have been fully known�. -1 Cor 13:12

JW’s don’t believe they get to see God face to face and be with Him. They prefer to believe they will remain on earth, even though Scripture tells us otherwise.

What reasonable person would not want to live in a paradise? Most people I know love the idea of vacationing in Hawaii. How about a whole planet that's paradise?

Paradise is nothing if we aren’t with the One we love.

"For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth...he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited." (Isaiah 45:18, KJV)

Aaaaaaand so it is.

"The heaven, even the heavens, are the LORD's: but the earth hath he given to the children of men." (Psalm 115:16, KJV)

Aaaaaaand so He did.

"So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void; but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it." (Isaiah 55:11, KJV)

Yes. And so it does and so it will. This means we shall be with our Lord in heaven some day, just as He desires.

I’m afraid Scripture does not support your conclusion.

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 745 by onewithhim]

I rarely put people on "ignore" I just don't engage with people that are unreasonable. I also would rather let someone have their last word than deraille a thread. It might have taken 74 pages but its good to see a return to the topic.

I think that the gospel hope of a paradise earth is something that should be discussed, its a beautiful thing.

JW

[onewithhim]

[Replying to post 747 by JehovahsWitness]

Yes, it is a beautiful thing. For anyone to despise this beautiful planet that God gave us is to enter into a realm of thinking that I cannot fathom.

As I have said before.....people have desperately sought a "Fountain of Youth" and have yearned for a "Shangri-la," but when they are told about a REAL Fountain of Youth and Shangri-la, they don't want it! Can anyone help me understand that?

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 748 by onewithhim]

I know there are religions that believe God created Adam and Eve in heaven and that this earth is a "punishment" or a test (Muslims believe this) but Eden was a garden of pleasure, the delights of this planet were God's making. There is in my opinion something seriously lacking in a theology that denies the obvious gift this planet is from God.

[tam]

[Replying to post 748 by onewithhim]

Can anyone help me understand that?

Because people who love Christ long to be with Him, in person, face to face (or sitting at His feet).

Literally be with Him.


And before you assert that he is 'with' some of us now (via holy spirit), and it will be the same then... you have previously acknowledged that the apostles and disciples were looking forward to more than that; to when they would LITERALLY be with Him.

That is what His Body, those who love Him and seek Him, are looking forward TO.

The JW version of paradise earth says, 'no, you can't have that.'


It is not paradise earth that some are rejecting. It is the fact that the JW version of paradise earth comes at the cost of their being with their Lord, and that is the very thing that they long to do.

Surely you can understand that?


**

Yet, there is no such cost. We do inherit the earth. But Christ is with us. He gathers His own up to Him, to be married, to be changed "in a twinkling"... then the Holy City comes down out of heaven. So that Paradise (the garden of Eden) - in the midst of which is Christ (the Tree of Life) - is once again upon the earth.

And the dwelling of God is with men.



Though there may be some who would argue with that as well... others would not care WHERE their eternal home is (heaven or earth, or access to both), as long as they are with their Lord, seeing Him, speaking with Him, face to face (or sitting at His feet).


Peace to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy