What purpose would a system of government have in heaven?

[Justin108]

What purpose would a system of government have when God is both omnipotent and omniscient? Why would an omnipotent God need to delegate in order to effectively rule? Can you perhaps give a few examples of what these rulers would be tasked to do? What purpose would rulers have in a paradise society? There is no economy to take care of, no resource distribution, no justice system as all members at this point will be free of sin... what is left for the rulers to do?

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 59 by RightReason]

Can we still get ... cranky in paradise earth?

"Cranky" has been defined as the following:

CRANKY

1.
BRITISH informal
eccentric or strange.
synonyms: eccentric, bizarre, weird, peculiar, odd, quirky, avant-garde, unconventional, off-centre, strange, outlandish, ridiculous, ludicrous;

2.
NORTH AMERICAN
bad-tempered; irritable.

synonyms: bad-tempered, irritable, irascible, tetchy, testy, grumpy, grouchy, crotchety, in a (bad) mood, ill-tempered, ill-natured, ill-humoured, peevish;

Whether in British or American English the meaning of "cranky" seems decidely negative implying ill feelings due to being off balanced in some way. Since by the end of 1000 years obedient mankind will have regained its emotional, spiritual and physical balance we will perfectly reflect the emotional and spiritual state of our maker in whose image we were originally made.

Again Jesus being the perfect model provides a picture of what human perfection should be, and never do we get the impression he was "eccentric" or "strange." much less "grumpy" "irritable" or "ill-tempered". On the contrary, his patience, good sense and love always colored his actions and words. Thus once perfect obedient humans can expect to be a perfect reflection of Christ Jesus who always displayed the fruit of the spirit in imitation of his father Jehovah (see Gal 5; 22,23). Obedient Mankind can look forward therefore to having perfect emotional and spiritual balance that will enable peaceful harmonious relationships with both God and each other.*

Cranky no more


*Of course this is quite a tall order and the bible indicates it will take up to 1000 years to achieve this goal, but achieve it they will under the guidance and tutorage of Christ Jesus and his associates and based on the benefits of the ransom sacrifice.

[RightReason]

[Replying to post 60 by JehovahsWitness]

That only partially answers one of my questions. Can you please answer my other questions?

And I have a follow up to the, "tired question.

Wouldnt it be reasoned that the reason Jesus got tired and needed food and sleep was because of His human nature and He was living in the mortal realm? In heaven, does Jesus need to sleep? Does God breathe? Is there air in heaven? Isnt part of the reason man gets exhausted and needs to allow his body to replenish because of the damage from sin and time and decay and death on the body? IOW, if death and disease are now prevented and a thing of the past, does the body still need to repair itself? And repair itself from what?

The reason Jesus got tired and had to relieve Himself when He got the urge was because He temporarily came to earth and became one of us. How do you know when we die in the here after man will still have to endure exactly what we do now? Did you forget, eye has not seen, ear has not heard Again, if sorrow, pain, aging, disease, decay, and death will be things of the past, what makes you so sure women will still menstruate? And the body will still need 8 hours of sleep every night?

Again, seems like JWs do an awful lot of speculating on their narrow notion of the here after rather than focusing on Jesus.

[RightReason]

[Replying to post 61 by JehovahsWitness]

Again Jesus being the perfect model provides a picture of what human perfection should be, and never do we get the impression he was "eccentric" or "strange." much less "grumpy" "irritable" or "ill-tempered".

Huh? He seemed pretty upset at those using the temple as a market place that He overturned their tables and threw them out. He was extremely sad when His friend died. And you could say He was so grumpy one day He cursed a fig tree.

Obedient Mankind can look forward therefore to having perfect emotional and spiritual balance that will enable peaceful harmonious relationships with both God and each other.*

This is good to hear and certainly what I would expect from heaven, but seems difficult in your paradise earth. Menstruating for eternity sounds like it might get old.

[Checkpoint]

[Replying to post 61 by JehovahsWitness]

Again Jesus being the perfect model provides a picture of what human perfection should be, and never do we get the impression he was "eccentric" or "strange." much less "grumpy" "irritable" or "ill-tempered".

Huh? He seemed pretty upset at those using the temple as a market place that He overturned their tables and threw them out. He was extremely sad when His friend died. And you could say He was so grumpy one day He cursed a fig tree.

Obedient Mankind can look forward therefore to having perfect emotional and spiritual balance that will enable peaceful harmonious relationships with both God and each other.*

This is good to hear and certainly what I would expect from heaven, but seems difficult in your paradise earth. Menstruating for eternity sounds like it might get old.

Menstruating for eternity?

Where did that come from?

Not from Jesus!

Mark 12:

24 Jesus said to them, Is this not the reason you are wrong, because you know neither the Scriptures nor the power of God?
25 For when they rise from the dead, they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels in heaven.

[Justin108]

JW's answer comes down to "because God wants to" and something to the effect of making the 144 000 feel special.

Yes, the government (of Jesus + 144,000 other individuals) this is how God wants to express his sovereignty for the time being. Is He not allowed to do what he wants? What about you? are YOU free to do as you like, if so why would God not have the same freedom as you do?

As I said, your answer comes down to "because God wants to" without any rationale behind why God would want to.

Why did John Wilkes Booth kill Abraham Lincoln?
- because he wanted to

Why did Hitler invade Poland?
- because he wanted to

These are non-answers

[Justin108]

Do you think these pictures strengthen your argument somehow?

"I didn't believe JW until he showed me this picture of a bunch of old dudes with crowns and now I believe"

So you can't give me an actual rational reason other than "because God wants to"?

Why doe God want to express his sovereignty for a period of time through individuals brought from from earth instead of rule directly himself?

Below are some reasons:

# As has been highlighted (see post #2 above), although God is capable of ruling directly, he knows that working with and through people gives them joy and immense pleasure so one reason would be because he loves them and is generous not adverse to delegation.

Suppose you worked in an office. In the office, there is a printer directly next to your desk. They are both connected to your computer. You have a friend, Pete, who is utterly useless. He has no skills and can't hold down a job. So to help him out, you hire him as your document fetcher. You move the printer to the other side of the office for no reason other than to give Pete something to do and tell Pete that his job is to fetch printed documents for you. You do this just so that Pete can feel useful, but in actual fact, he isn't. This is basically what you're describing. The 144 000 are useless individuals doing things for God that he could effortlessly do himself just so that they can feel useful. In reality, they aren't. Frankly, I find this kind of pity-delegation degrading.

# For Jesus (the principal member of this government) it is also a fitting reward for succesfully fulfilling his commission to give his human life as a ransom. Siimilarly, the co-rulers (other government members) have proven to be loyal until death and have been offered privilege as a reward.

So Jesus gets pity-delegation as well?

# Another reason is that their assgnment will be to oversee humans, using individuals who were formerly residents on the earth means they will bring to the job a level of understanding of life as a human man or woman, that angels for example could not possibly have.

Who said anything about angels? My recommendation was that God do it himself.

To illustrate: How often do the people lament that their rulers don't know what it is like to live as a normal working class person?

Are you suggesting humans are tasked to rule to avoid some kind of rebellion, stemming from this lamentation?

It is a very compassionate thing for God to choose both men and women, people from all backgrounds to be part of his "ruling class" who have collectively lived the lives of those they will be governing.

Curious. Your propaganda picture above just shows a bunch of white men.

# Related to this is there is a type of poetic justice, that the humans play a role in the regulating of mankind's problems; a human (Adam) was essentially the start of the problem, how fitting that humans should be allowed to play a role in the solution.

Adam, a perfect man, once messed up so badly that he ended up making humanity suffer for thousands of years. And now God is entrusting the human race to other "perfect men"? Is that wise? Is God risking the well-being of mankind for the sake of "poetic justice"?

[Justin108]

how many do you suppose will end up living on earth? Then there's the matter of reproduction. Will people still reproduce in paradise?

Will paradise not eventually become overpopulated?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 237#832237

How long will it take to "fill the earth"?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 240#832240

Do we need to worry God cannot handle the potential problem of over population? (2timothy316)
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 273#832273

QUESTION: Will contraceptives be available while living in paradise?

QUESTION: Will everybody be having sex with everybody else in paradise?

Who asks these questions? You have a habit of mutilating the questions we actually ask beyond recognition. I never asked if people will be given contraceptives and I never asked if everyone will be having sex with everyone. Are you debating with yourself here?

The bible is very clear on God's standards as to sexual activity. Sex is a privilege to be uniquely enjoyed between a man and his (one) wife.

What about widows who remarried? And what about David's considerably-more-than-one wives?

The bible holds numerous examples of God destroying those that indulged in sexual immorality and says explicitly that the sexually immoral will NOT inherit the kingdom (see 1 Cor 6:9).

So no paradise for David then. Back to the widows. Is it sexually immoral for a widow to remarry?

Those that suggest that perfection will amount to a sexual free-for-all do so in opposition to the explicit statements in scripture.

Again, who suggested this? Who are you actually debating with here?

[Justin108]

It is a very compassionate thing for God to choose both men and women, people from all backgrounds to be part of his "ruling class" who have collectively lived the lives of those they will be governing.

Hey look, more white men

[Justin108]

I never said we should remove the act of eating, merely the need to eat. Eating should be like dancing; something you do for fun but not something you need to do.

I acknowledge that is how you feel, and I am not minimizing your feelings, but I am simply presenting what the bible says on the matter. Biblically speaking there is nothing wrong with the fact that human bodies need food, it is an expression of God's love that he has made something that is necessary ALSO pleasurable.

From a biblical stand point (the BIBLE) there is nothing at all wrong with needing to eat.

onewithhim asked me why removing the need to eat would be an improvement. I answered him/her. At this point, we weren't discussing the Bible so I don't see the relevance of your response.

[Justin108]

[Replying to post 25 by Justin108]

Why would removing the need for food be an improvement? Isn't eating a pleasurable experience? What are your favorite foods? Do you enjoy them? Why would you not want to have them to enjoy?

.

I never said we should remove the act of eating, merely the need to eat. Eating should be like dancing; something you do for fun but not something you need to do.

So you are saying that humans shouldn't need to do anything.

I am saying removing a need is an improvement.

You apparently think that we should not need to sleep, but stay awake 24/7; or need to keep from jumping off a high cliff, but be able to jump or fall anywhere and not get hurt; or need to brush our teeth, but should have perfectly clean teeth automatically. I could go on.

If we want to, yes. That is my understanding of perfection.

That doesn't make any sense.

My sympathies for your lack of comprehension.