The Fate of Nonbelievers

[myth-one.com]

Christians believe the Bible to be inspired by God. If so, true Christian theology will be found in the Bible. Likewise, theology which cannot be found in the Bible is not true Christian theology. Participants in this topic will debate the eternal fate of nonbelievers -- as written in the Bible! Nonbelievers will be defined as anyone who does not believe in Jesus -- regardless of their age, intelligence, or any other factor! One's input is valuable only if supported by the Bible. Whether or not one actually believes the Bible to be true is inconsequential! No preference will be given based on religious beliefs, faith, denominations, etc. We will attempt to jointly and finally agree as to what the Bible states believers will be saved from! It will be a learning experience, with no preaching or attempts at "saving" anyone. Hopefully we can save human lives and reduce irrational fears! I encourage all to participate!

As a starting point. This is what I claim the Holy Bible states as to the fate of nonbelievers: (Click on any item below for a full biblical defense of that claim.)

2. The Bible defines two body types, natural and spiritual. God and the angels are spiritual bodied beings, while all other beings are physical. The main difference between the two types is longevity. Spiritual bodies are immortal, while natural bodies will perish. Also, pain is necessary for natural bodies to recognize when they're in harm's way. Spirits are indestructible, and thus need no pain.
3. Two separate and distinct physical deaths may befall mankind, but only the first death is a certainty. Every human will die the first death.
4. And every human who suffers their first death will be resurrected. Those whose names are written in the Book of Life will be resurrected to everlasting life.
5. But there will be an order to the resurrections. Christ was resurrected first. All dead believers will be resurrected at the second Coming of Christ, and all nonbelievers will be resurrected a thousand years after the Second Coming.
6. All Christians living at the time of the Second Coming will be changed into spiritual beings and meet Christ in the air.
7. At this time, there will be no living human Christians. All will have been born again of the Spirit as spiritual children of God. They will then spend the thousand year Millennium with Christ.
8. Following the Millennium, all dead nonbelievers will be resurrected as humans and face judgment. Following their judgment, those whose names are not written in the Book of Life are cast into the lake of fire and instantly perish -- being human. This is their second and everlasting death. They have opted out of life for all eternity.
9. But their names were not written into the Book of Life prior to their judgment! Everyone with their names written in the Book of Life were born again into the spiritual Kingdom of God at the Second Coming. The Book of Life was cleared at that time. So why check it again?
10. The only possible reason is that nonbelievers will have the opportunity to accept salvation during the judgment process! The blank Book of Life is reopened at the beginning of judgment so that names may be written into it. The names written into it will be names of nonbeliever who repent and accept Jesus as their Savior during their judgment.

Initial Conclusion: The everlasting fate of nonbelievers is eternal death. They will die -- never to live again.

Consequences: No humans will suffer eternally in the lake of fire. Distraught parents who murder their children in their innocent years in an effort to send them to heaven as they have been taught -- have been deceived! Likewise, the millions of deceived Christians who constantly worry about their unsaved family and loved ones being eternally tortured in the fires of hell can now chill out.

Click here to view the current "Fate of Nonbelievers" and supporting biblical evidence as resolved by debaters under this thread.

I will modify attachments linked to from this post as we debate the issue and find corrections or improvements! Hopefully, we will be led to a good result!

[myth-one.com]

You say Satan cannot be killed. That's odd, because he will be symbolically thrown into the figurative lake of fire which means the second death, which no one who dies will survive at all. They will be DEAD, not alive somewhere literally getting tortured.


.

Actually, that is what the Bible states:

And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. (Revelation 20:7-10)

How can he be "tormented day and night for ever and ever" if he is dead?

[onewithhim]

You say Satan cannot be killed. That's odd, because he will be symbolically thrown into the figurative lake of fire which means the second death, which no one who dies will survive at all. They will be DEAD, not alive somewhere literally getting tortured.


.

Actually, that is what the Bible states:

And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. (Revelation 20:7-10)

How can he be "tormented day and night for ever and ever" if he is dead?

I guess you missed the thread where that scripture was explained.

The Greek word from which "tormented" was translated is "basanizo." It is associated with jailers who torment by merely restraining a person. A person who is in a jail cell cannot do what he wants to do anymore. That is the meaning of "torment" at Revelation 20:10. The Devil won't be able to do any more of his evil works because he will be restrained with the most final restraint! DEATH.

.

[Benoni]

You say Satan cannot be killed. That's odd, because he will be symbolically thrown into the figurative lake of fire which means the second death, which no one who dies will survive at all. They will be DEAD, not alive somewhere literally getting tortured.


.

Actually, that is what the Bible states:

And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. (Revelation 20:7-10)

How can he be "tormented day and night for ever and ever" if he is dead?

I guess you missed the thread where that scripture was explained.

The Greek word from which "tormented" was translated is "basanizo." It is associated with jailers who torment by merely restraining a person. A person who is in a jail cell cannot do what he wants to do anymore. That is the meaning of "torment" at Revelation 20:10. The Devil won't be able to do any more of his evil works because he will be restrained with the most final restraint! DEATH.

.

Nice opinion about the second death. people will not be dead any more for there will be no more death. Death killed by death.

[Benoni]

Christ destroyed him that had the power of death, that is, the devil (Heb. 2:14), Christ came and abolished death (II Tim. 1:10) He now boldly proclaims: "I am He that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the KEYS OF HELL AND OF DEATH" (Rev. 1:18).

And since the Christ now possesses both hades and death neither of them ride anywhere except by His power and will!

This horse is given power over the fourth part of the earth-realm, to kill with the sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.

This "fourth part of the earth" is clearly that portion of earthiness not already dealt with by the three preceding horses. It means the final destruction of everything within us that is contrary to HIS life and kingdom.

To kill with DEATH

There is an amazing statement in the passage that we do not want to miss. "And power was given unto Him to kill...with death."!

[myth-one.com]

Christ destroyed him that had the power of death, that is, the devil (Heb. 2:14),

Then who is this "devil" restrained in the lake of fire for all eternity?

[u[And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone[/u], where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Here are some other versions of Hebrews 2:14:

KJ21

Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, He also Himself likewise took part of the same, that through death He might destroy him that had the power of death — that is, the devil —

ASV

Since then the children are sharers in flesh and blood, he also himself in like manner partook of the same; that through death he might bring to nought him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;

AMP

Therefore, since [these His] children share in flesh and blood [the physical nature of mankind], He Himself in a similar manner also shared in the same [physical nature, but without sin], so that through [experiencing] death He might make powerless (ineffective, impotent) him who had the power of death—that is, the devil—

AMPC

Since, therefore, [these His] children share in flesh and blood [in the physical nature of human beings], He [Himself] in a similar manner partook of the same [nature], that by [going through] death He might bring to nought and make of no effect him who had the power of death—that is, the devil—

These translations correctly state that the devil's power over death was destroyed -- not the devil himself.

Being a spirit, the devil cannot be destroyed.

The same was true of The Word. He could not die until He was "made flesh" as the human Jesus Christ:

But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honor; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man. (Hebrews 2:9)

Things which God created as immortal cannot be destroyed.

[onewithhim]

[Replying to post 162 by myth-one.com]

So you reject the idea that the lake of fire is SYMBOLISM for complete destruction? And you reject the idea that God did not create spirit persons to be immortal? You also reject the stated fact that Jesus was THE ONLY IMMORTAL PERSON to exist at the time Paul wrote to Timothy?

"Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire." (Rev.20:14, NASB) Satan and his demons will also be "thrown" into the lake of fire. If Satan will be literally consciously tortured forever, what will death and Hades experience?

..."The King of kings and Lord of lords, who alone possesses immortality and dwells in unapproachable light, whom no man has seen or can see." (I Timothy 6:16, NASB) Only Jesus was immortal.


Will you respond, please?

[myth-one.com]

[Replying to post 162 by myth-one.com]

So you reject the idea that the lake of fire is SYMBOLISM for complete destruction?

Any human cast into the lake of fire will be instantly and completely destroyed for all eternity.

It is a real place -- not symbolic.

How can any real being be cast into a "symbolic" hell?

And you reject the idea that God did not create spirit persons to be immortal?

No, I accept the idea that God did not create "spirit persons."

God creates spiritual beings to be immortal.

All other beings are physical and mortal.

There are physical bodies and spiritual bodies and they do not mix. The physical comes first and the spiritual comes last.

You also reject the stated fact that Jesus was THE ONLY IMMORTAL PERSON to exist at the time Paul wrote to Timothy?

Person: a human being regarded as an individual.

I reject the idea that ANY immortal human ever existed at any time -- including Jesus.

"Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire." (Rev.20:14, NASB) Satan and his demons will also be "thrown" into the lake of fire.

"His Demons" will apparently serve some "determinant" sentences and be released. They are in "prison" now:

And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day. (Jude 1:6)

Only the devil is said to be tormented day and night for ever and ever in the lake of fire.

If Satan will be literally consciously tortured forever, what will death and Hades experience?

Death and hell are associated with the deaths of mankind only. Mankind dies and is buried, entombed, or cremated.

The word hell used in Revelation 20:14 is better translated into English as grave.

After the last human is judged and either granted everlasting life or cast into the lake of fire and permanently destroyed, the concept of death is no longer valid.

Since death is no longer a valid concept, there is no longer any need for the word "death" or a grave. Because no one will ever die again, no one will ever be buried in a grave again. Therefore, the concepts of death and hell (the grave) are both cast into the lake of fire and destroyed as prophesied:

The last enemy that shall be defeated is death. (I Corinthians 15:26)

..."The King of kings and Lord of lords, who alone possesses immortality and dwells in unapproachable light, whom no man has seen or can see." (I Timothy 6:16, NASB) Only Jesus was immortal.

If Jesus was immortal, how could He die for the sins of mankind?

You're confusing Jesus and the Word:

And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us... (John 1:14)

The Word is immortal:

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. (John 1:1-3)

Jesus was not The Word. Jesus was the Word made flesh. That is to say, Jesus was a man.

What is man, that thou art mindful of him?... For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels, (Psalm 8:4-5)

But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honor; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man. (Hebrews 2:9)

Man = a little lower than the angels.

Jesus = a little lower than the angels.

Therefore, Jesus = man!

If A = B, and C= B, then A = C

During the short 33 or so years of Jesus' human life, both He and The Word existed.

After Jesus' ascension to Heaven, His human body was no longer needed for any reason.

Christians use the name Jesus, when in actuality the proper name (or title?) is The Word.

Sometimes it is said as "Jesus is the Word."

When someone has a spiritual body, there is no cause to have a physical body -- unless someone desires to suffer and die.

And that has reportedly happened only once:

But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honor; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man. (Hebrews 2:9)

Will you respond, please?

Always happy to respond!

[onewithhim]

[Replying to post 162 by myth-one.com]

Yes, spirits CAN be destroyed, and that is what the lake of fire SYMBOLIZES. The Devil is thrown there, symbolically. It is obviously symbolic because "death and Hades" are thrown there as well. Death, Hades, and the Devil are all done away with, completely. Nothing and no one is tortured, literally, forever. They are just gone.


Why do you keep saying that spirits can't be destroyed? Because you think they were created immortal? Where does the Bible say that, pray tell?

[onewithhim]

[Replying to post 164 by myth-one.com]

Jesus wasn't immortal until AFTER his death and resurrection.

You do not take the scriptures seriously, do you?

[myth-one.com]

[Replying to post 162 by myth-one.com]

Yes, spirits CAN be destroyed, and that is what the lake of fire SYMBOLIZES. The Devil is thrown there, symbolically. It is obviously symbolic because "death and Hades" are thrown there as well. Death, Hades, and the Devil are all done away with, completely. Nothing and no one is tortured, literally, forever. They are just gone.


Why do you keep saying that spirits can't be destroyed? Because you think they were created immortal? Where does the Bible say that, pray tell?

God is a spirit:

God is a Spirit:

So God can be destroyed.