The Fate of Nonbelievers

[myth-one.com]

Christians believe the Bible to be inspired by God. If so, true Christian theology will be found in the Bible. Likewise, theology which cannot be found in the Bible is not true Christian theology. Participants in this topic will debate the eternal fate of nonbelievers -- as written in the Bible! Nonbelievers will be defined as anyone who does not believe in Jesus -- regardless of their age, intelligence, or any other factor! One's input is valuable only if supported by the Bible. Whether or not one actually believes the Bible to be true is inconsequential! No preference will be given based on religious beliefs, faith, denominations, etc. We will attempt to jointly and finally agree as to what the Bible states believers will be saved from! It will be a learning experience, with no preaching or attempts at "saving" anyone. Hopefully we can save human lives and reduce irrational fears! I encourage all to participate!

As a starting point. This is what I claim the Holy Bible states as to the fate of nonbelievers: (Click on any item below for a full biblical defense of that claim.)

2. The Bible defines two body types, natural and spiritual. God and the angels are spiritual bodied beings, while all other beings are physical. The main difference between the two types is longevity. Spiritual bodies are immortal, while natural bodies will perish. Also, pain is necessary for natural bodies to recognize when they're in harm's way. Spirits are indestructible, and thus need no pain.
3. Two separate and distinct physical deaths may befall mankind, but only the first death is a certainty. Every human will die the first death.
4. And every human who suffers their first death will be resurrected. Those whose names are written in the Book of Life will be resurrected to everlasting life.
5. But there will be an order to the resurrections. Christ was resurrected first. All dead believers will be resurrected at the second Coming of Christ, and all nonbelievers will be resurrected a thousand years after the Second Coming.
6. All Christians living at the time of the Second Coming will be changed into spiritual beings and meet Christ in the air.
7. At this time, there will be no living human Christians. All will have been born again of the Spirit as spiritual children of God. They will then spend the thousand year Millennium with Christ.
8. Following the Millennium, all dead nonbelievers will be resurrected as humans and face judgment. Following their judgment, those whose names are not written in the Book of Life are cast into the lake of fire and instantly perish -- being human. This is their second and everlasting death. They have opted out of life for all eternity.
9. But their names were not written into the Book of Life prior to their judgment! Everyone with their names written in the Book of Life were born again into the spiritual Kingdom of God at the Second Coming. The Book of Life was cleared at that time. So why check it again?
10. The only possible reason is that nonbelievers will have the opportunity to accept salvation during the judgment process! The blank Book of Life is reopened at the beginning of judgment so that names may be written into it. The names written into it will be names of nonbeliever who repent and accept Jesus as their Savior during their judgment.

Initial Conclusion: The everlasting fate of nonbelievers is eternal death. They will die -- never to live again.

Consequences: No humans will suffer eternally in the lake of fire. Distraught parents who murder their children in their innocent years in an effort to send them to heaven as they have been taught -- have been deceived! Likewise, the millions of deceived Christians who constantly worry about their unsaved family and loved ones being eternally tortured in the fires of hell can now chill out.

Click here to view the current "Fate of Nonbelievers" and supporting biblical evidence as resolved by debaters under this thread.

I will modify attachments linked to from this post as we debate the issue and find corrections or improvements! Hopefully, we will be led to a good result!

[Benoni]

Show me where man is a free agent in scripture?

I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live: (Deuteronomy 30:19)

He had no choice in the garden . . .

But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

God forbade them from eating of the tree of knowledge

.
Which was God's will they would eat it. Ps 90. So show me this freewill or choice? They did what God ordain them to do.

They could choose to obey or disobey God's command.

Where does it say that? But it does say:" Romans 8: 20 The created world was bound to fail. But that was not the result of its own choice. It was planned that way by the One who made it. God planned 21 to set the created world free. He didn't want it to rot away completely. Instead, he wanted it to have the same glorious freedom that his children have"

They could also have chosen to eat from the tree of life and live forever.

Where does it say that? But it does say:" Romans 8: 20 The created world was bound to fail. But that was not the result of its own choice. It was planned that way by the One who made it. God planned 21 to set the created world free. He didn't want it to rot away completely. Instead, he wanted it to have the same glorious freedom that his children have"

God expelled them from the garden so that they would not do so.

Do what?

If they could not have chosen to eat from the tree of life, there would have been no cause to relocate them.

Where does it say that? But it does say:" Romans 8: 20 The created world was bound to fail. But that was not the result of its own choice. It was planned that way by the One who made it. God planned 21 to set the created world free. He didn't want it to rot away completely. Instead, he wanted it to have the same glorious freedom that his children have"

Relocating them from the tree of life proves that they could choose to eat from that tree.

Where does it say that? But it does say:" Romans 8: 20 The created world was bound to fail. But that was not the result of its own choice. It was planned that way by the One who made it. God planned 21 to set the created world free. He didn't want it to rot away completely. Instead, he wanted it to have the same glorious freedom that his children have"

It's called freedom of choice.

And where in the Bible does it say we have a freedom of choice? We did not choose Adam to fall. We did not choose to have a body of sin and death? We did not choose our parents, where we are born or our own salvation. Adam had no choice because God's will is greater than little Adam.

[Benoni]

It just amazes me how I have scripture that totally refutes your claims that Adam had a choice yet you keep trying to prove this point with your assumption base on hot air? If we cannot allow God's Word to change our minds and your assumptions become your guide that what do you have??? A False religion based on what some long dead religious leader has blinded you so badly you refuse to see the truth in the scripture and what it says.

[myth-one.com]

20 The created world was bound to fail. But that was not the result of its own choice. It was planned that way by the One who made it. God planned

21 to set the created world free. He didn't want it to rot away completely. Instead, he wanted it to have the same glorious freedom that his children have"

What translation of the scriptures are you quoting from?

I could not find any translation even close to your quote.

20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,

21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.

WHAT IT MEANS -- My comments in blue.

In my opinion (Paul writing) whatever we may have to go through now is less than nothing compared with the magnificent future God has planned for us (Christians). The whole creation is on tiptoe to see the wonderful sight of the sons of God (Christians) coming into their own. The world of creation cannot as yet see reality, not because it chooses to be blind, but because in God’s purpose it has been so limited—yet it has been given hope. And the hope is that in the end the whole of created life will be rescued from the tyranny of change and decay (the physical world), and have its share in that magnificent liberty which can only belong to the children of God (the spiritual world)!

[Benoni]

20 The created world was bound to fail. But that was not the result of its own choice. It was planned that way by the One who made it. God planned

21 to set the created world free. He didn't want it to rot away completely. Instead, he wanted it to have the same glorious freedom that his children have"

What translation of the scriptures are you quoting from?

I could not find any translation even close to your quote.

Why would this matter to you? You have quoted nothing from scripture this could be the worst translation ever but at least its a big step above NOTHING..

20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,

21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.

WHAT IT MEANS -- My comments in blue.

In my opinion (Paul writing) whatever we may have to go through now is less than nothing compared with the magnificent future God has planned for us (Christians). The whole creation is on tiptoe to see the wonderful sight of the sons of God (Christians) coming into their own. The world of creation cannot as yet see reality, not because it chooses to be blind, but because in God’s purpose it has been so limited—yet it has been given hope. And the hope is that in the end the whole of created life will be rescued from the tyranny of change and decay (the physical world), and have its share in that magnificent liberty which can only belong to the children of God (the spiritual world)!

This verse never says Christians... It says sons of God. Most Christians are before the throne. This whole verse is about "son's of God" Not the great multitude no one can number.

So when does this happen? I have a verse for you. let see if you have one.

Obadiah 1:21 And saviourS shall come up on mount Zion (the high places of Ruleship in the kingdom) to judge the mount of Esau (Flesh); and the kingdom shall be the LORD's.

[myth-one.com]

20 The created world was bound to fail. But that was not the result of its own choice. It was planned that way by the One who made it. God planned

21 to set the created world free. He didn't want it to rot away completely. Instead, he wanted it to have the same glorious freedom that his children have"

What translation of the scriptures are you quoting from?

I could not find any translation even close to your quote.

Why would this matter to you? You have quoted nothing from scripture this could be the worst translation ever but at least its a big step above NOTHING..

It's a matter of trust. What translation are you "quoting" from? Or do you know?

20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,

21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.

WHAT IT MEANS -- My comments in blue.

In my opinion (Paul writing) whatever we may have to go through now is less than nothing compared with the magnificent future God has planned for us (Christians). The whole creation is on tiptoe to see the wonderful sight of the sons of God (Christians) coming into their own. The world of creation cannot as yet see reality, not because it chooses to be blind, but because in God’s purpose it has been so limited—yet it has been given hope. And the hope is that in the end the whole of created life will be rescued from the tyranny of change and decay (the physical world), and have its share in that magnificent liberty which can only belong to the children of God (the spiritual world)!

This verse never says Christians... It says sons of God.

The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ ... (Romans 8:16-17)

Paul calls Christians the children of God.

Christians are the sons and daughters of God, or the children of God!

[Benoni]

20 The created world was bound to fail. But that was not the result of its own choice. It was planned that way by the One who made it. God planned

21 to set the created world free. He didn't want it to rot away completely. Instead, he wanted it to have the same glorious freedom that his children have"

What translation of the scriptures are you quoting from?

I could not find any translation even close to your quote.

Why would this matter to you? You have quoted nothing from scripture this could be the worst translation ever but at least its a big step above NOTHING..

It's a matter of trust. What translation are you "quoting" from? Or do you know?

20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,

21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.

WHAT IT MEANS -- My comments in blue.

In my opinion (Paul writing) whatever we may have to go through now is less than nothing compared with the magnificent future God has planned for us (Christians). The whole creation is on tiptoe to see the wonderful sight of the sons of God (Christians) coming into their own. The world of creation cannot as yet see reality, not because it chooses to be blind, but because in God’s purpose it has been so limited—yet it has been given hope. And the hope is that in the end the whole of created life will be rescued from the tyranny of change and decay (the physical world), and have its share in that magnificent liberty which can only belong to the children of God (the spiritual world)!

This verse never says Christians... It says sons of God.

The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ ... (Romans 8:16-17)

Paul calls Christians the children of God.

Christians are the sons and daughters of God, or the children of God!

Sons of God our mature sons the overcomers (saviorS out of Mt Zion) will rule in reign with Christ.

Children are immature goats and are part of the great multitude that cannot be numbers.

Notice there is a distinction between the great multitudes BEFORE the throne (Rev. 7:9) in comparison to the overcomer who Christ will grant to sit with me on my throne (Rev. 3:21) .
Rev. 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
Rev. 3: 21To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne. 22He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

[onewithhim]

Myth, do you really think you're going to get anywhere with a person who is dedicated to believe that God created mankind to destroy it?

[Checkpoint]

[Replying to post 195 by Benoni]

Adam was God's son. God wanted him to go thought the process of tribulation, sin and death so in the end the overcomers will rule and reign with Christ. Without the fall of Adam we would be puppets.

That Adam fell shows he was never a puppet, just as he was never "pure spirit".

Man was made in God's image and likeness, and was thus given dominion over other created life.

At the same time, man was made male and female, which no "pure spirit" is.

So you are ignoring all the verses from when God created Adam to where God formed Adam from the dust of the earth.

I ignore no such verses, as your description does not convey what they say but what you read into them.

Than you tell us what they say and show me where I am wrong. All this is is hot air.

Been there, done that, as has myth-one.com.

That poster and I know what is hot air and who it comes from, because we know what scripture says about what we are debating.

[ttruscott]

God is a Spirit. The original "pure Spirit."

Before the fall, you claim Adam was a pure spirit.

If God is a pure spirit and Adam is a pure spirit then Adam and God are equals.

Too add my studied opinion: GOD is a pure spirit, existing as a spirit without any physical expression of HIMself BY NATURE, all people created in HIS image were also CREATED as pure spirits with no physical expression but as created people they are not equal to the Divine Spirit. Being pure spirit doesn't denote any equality in the least between the divine and the created.

And if God is without "sin and death," then Adam, being equal to God, is also without sin and death.

False conclusion due to false premise... I believe all spirits made in HIS image were created ingenuously innocent with the ability to choose it be holy or evil by their free will.

If Adam is without sin, there could be no "fall."

Nonsense, an innocent who has the free will capacity to choose may choose evil or good. Sin did not cause the fall, the fall created sin.

And if Adam is without death, Adam could not die.

Yes, this is what Eve knew...that she was created immortal and that she was one of HIS elect and so promised salvation from all sin so as to escape the death of hell. The serpent used this knowledge to deceive her.

Thus, if "pure spirits" are immune to sin and death, then it is impossible for them to change.

Only divine pure spirits are immune to sin and death and those created pure spirits who chose by their free will to stay fully in accord with YHWH's righteousness and never deviate from it - the holy elect angels - they too are immune to sin and death. And why would they ever want to change when they live in the bliss of GOD's presence??? The only change that is meaningful is the change to be evil but since they know the proof of YHWH's divinity and power and have seen for themselves the horrendous outcomes of choosing to be evil, they will never change but will remain holy forever.

[Benoni]

[Replying to post 213 by onewithhim]

Your the one that believes God is going to put trillions of people he never called into a dust grave and that is it. How is ALL being saved destroying mankind???? Why don't you get into the debate instead of just throwing unrelated remarks,