The Fate of Nonbelievers

[myth-one.com]

Christians believe the Bible to be inspired by God. If so, true Christian theology will be found in the Bible. Likewise, theology which cannot be found in the Bible is not true Christian theology. Participants in this topic will debate the eternal fate of nonbelievers -- as written in the Bible! Nonbelievers will be defined as anyone who does not believe in Jesus -- regardless of their age, intelligence, or any other factor! One's input is valuable only if supported by the Bible. Whether or not one actually believes the Bible to be true is inconsequential! No preference will be given based on religious beliefs, faith, denominations, etc. We will attempt to jointly and finally agree as to what the Bible states believers will be saved from! It will be a learning experience, with no preaching or attempts at "saving" anyone. Hopefully we can save human lives and reduce irrational fears! I encourage all to participate!

As a starting point. This is what I claim the Holy Bible states as to the fate of nonbelievers: (Click on any item below for a full biblical defense of that claim.)

2. The Bible defines two body types, natural and spiritual. God and the angels are spiritual bodied beings, while all other beings are physical. The main difference between the two types is longevity. Spiritual bodies are immortal, while natural bodies will perish. Also, pain is necessary for natural bodies to recognize when they're in harm's way. Spirits are indestructible, and thus need no pain.
3. Two separate and distinct physical deaths may befall mankind, but only the first death is a certainty. Every human will die the first death.
4. And every human who suffers their first death will be resurrected. Those whose names are written in the Book of Life will be resurrected to everlasting life.
5. But there will be an order to the resurrections. Christ was resurrected first. All dead believers will be resurrected at the second Coming of Christ, and all nonbelievers will be resurrected a thousand years after the Second Coming.
6. All Christians living at the time of the Second Coming will be changed into spiritual beings and meet Christ in the air.
7. At this time, there will be no living human Christians. All will have been born again of the Spirit as spiritual children of God. They will then spend the thousand year Millennium with Christ.
8. Following the Millennium, all dead nonbelievers will be resurrected as humans and face judgment. Following their judgment, those whose names are not written in the Book of Life are cast into the lake of fire and instantly perish -- being human. This is their second and everlasting death. They have opted out of life for all eternity.
9. But their names were not written into the Book of Life prior to their judgment! Everyone with their names written in the Book of Life were born again into the spiritual Kingdom of God at the Second Coming. The Book of Life was cleared at that time. So why check it again?
10. The only possible reason is that nonbelievers will have the opportunity to accept salvation during the judgment process! The blank Book of Life is reopened at the beginning of judgment so that names may be written into it. The names written into it will be names of nonbeliever who repent and accept Jesus as their Savior during their judgment.

Initial Conclusion: The everlasting fate of nonbelievers is eternal death. They will die -- never to live again.

Consequences: No humans will suffer eternally in the lake of fire. Distraught parents who murder their children in their innocent years in an effort to send them to heaven as they have been taught -- have been deceived! Likewise, the millions of deceived Christians who constantly worry about their unsaved family and loved ones being eternally tortured in the fires of hell can now chill out.

Click here to view the current "Fate of Nonbelievers" and supporting biblical evidence as resolved by debaters under this thread.

I will modify attachments linked to from this post as we debate the issue and find corrections or improvements! Hopefully, we will be led to a good result!

[myth-one.com]

It's all really simple and logical.

Maybe so, but that is not how truth is measured.

I repeat:

"It presents a view, but without any evidence to confirm its veracity",

That is, adequate evidence from scripture, especially the New Testament.

It's origin is the scriptures!

Then presenting them specifically should be a piece of cake for you!

Let's start with this much:

The two testaments of the Bible contain wills or covenants between God and man.

The inheritance received by humans who qualify as heirs under either testament is everlasting life. Those who do not qualify simply perish.

The only way to become an heir to eternal life under the first covenant was to never sin. However, there was a fault in that first testament in that all mankind sinned!

Since the first covenant contained a fault, God created a second or New Testament Covenant.

And the Lord God commanded the man saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die. (Genesis 2:16-17)

God did not suggest or recommend that man not eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. He commanded it! Likewise, God informed mankind (both of them) what the consequence of violating God's commandment would be -- death.

This was the first covenant between God and man. I created you, if you follow my command you will have continued life, if you disobey my command you will die.

Throughout the entire Bible, the wages or consequence of disobeying God's commandments is always death:

For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.   (Romans 6:23)

Where sin is defined as:

Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law. (I John 3:4)

But there was a fault in this first covenant, in that all of mankind sinned by disobeying God's laws:

Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed unto all men, for that all have sinned: (Romans 5:12)

Since the first covenant contained faults, God created a second or New Testament:

But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises. For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second. (Hebrews 8:6-7)

========================================================================

See if you can find any fault with that part before I continue. The reason I ask that is because the vast majority of Christians are taught that mankind is born with an immortal soul.

Consequently for these traditional Christians, death must be interpreted to be something other than death! This contradicts the Bible, which states that the unsaved die, perish, and are lost and gone for eternity. That is the end, or death, of them.

Note that the scriptures are sealed from man's understanding:

And the vision of all is become unto you as the words of a book that is sealed, which men deliver to one that is learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I cannot for it is sealed: (Isaiah 29:11)

But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased. (Daniel 12:4)

Here's how they were sealed in the first few pages of the Bible:

And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die: (Genesis 3:4)

Satan lied when he informed Eve that she would live forever, "Ye shall not surely die." Christianity has widely accepted that lie as truth ever since.

If a person subscribes to man's being born with immortality, with an immortal soul or spirit, the scriptures will have no meaning to that person. And this should be obvious to anyone.

For example, God said the consequences of eating the forbidden fruit was death. If man lives forever, then death cannot really mean death -- so those believing in man's immortality would get into "interpreting" death to be something other than death. I'm not interested in that futility.

But if you are open to the possibility that mankind can perish, never to live again, then the above explanation should make sense to you.

I'm not picking on you -- and I don't know much about you. I just do not want to waste our time.

Oh well, let me know if I should continue. You won't have any trouble with it. Whether one believes the Bible or not -- it really is a very logical book.

Thanks

[ttruscott]

Quote:
And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die: (Genesis 3:4)

Satan lied when he informed Eve that she would live forever, "Ye shall not surely die." Christianity has widely accepted that lie as truth ever since.

Have you considered that IF Eve knew she was an elect of GOD and therefore under HIS promise of eternal life in heaven and IF she knew all spirits were created to be eternal, THEN he wasss not telling her a lie but a truth to suck her into proving her faithfulness to HIS truth by the disobedience of eating!

This seems more plausible to me that that she would just accept the lie for no reason, though I know of your vested interest in the Church believing this lie.

[myth-one.com]

Quote:
And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die: (Genesis 3:4)

Satan lied when he informed Eve that she would live forever, "Ye shall not surely die." Christianity has widely accepted that lie as truth ever since.

Have you considered that IF Eve knew she was an elect of GOD and therefore under HIS promise of eternal life in heaven and IF she knew all spirits were created to be eternal, THEN he wasss not telling her a lie but a truth to suck her into proving her faithfulness to HIS truth by the disobedience of eating!

This seems more plausible to me that that she would just accept the lie for no reason, though I know of your vested interest in the Church believing this lie.

If Eve knew she was "under HIS promise of eternal life in heaven," as you say.

How could she also know that:

If she ate of the forbidden fruit, she would die?

=========================================================================

How can anyone accept both of those contradictory statements to be true?

Either God or the serpent lied.

But the Bible says that God cannot lie:

In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;

If God cannot lie, I'll have to believe that the serpent did lie.

God promised the "hope of eternal life" before the world began.

He did not promise "eternal life" to all mankind.

[Checkpoint]

Quote:
And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die: (Genesis 3:4)

Satan lied when he informed Eve that she would live forever, "Ye shall not surely die." Christianity has widely accepted that lie as truth ever since.

Have you considered that IF Eve knew she was an elect of GOD and therefore under HIS promise of eternal life in heaven and IF she knew all spirits were created to be eternal, THEN he wasss not telling her a lie but a truth to suck her into proving her faithfulness to HIS truth by the disobedience of eating!

This seems more plausible to me that that she would just accept the lie for no reason, though I know of your vested interest in the Church believing this lie.

Your question is based on your two ifs, which reflect "your vested interest" in them being likely and therefore plausible. They are neither; "Eve knew" neither.

Man was not, and is not, a spirit.

[Checkpoint]

It's all really simple and logical.

Maybe so, but that is not how truth is measured.

I repeat:

"It presents a view, but without any evidence to confirm its veracity",

That is, adequate evidence from scripture, especially the New Testament.

It's origin is the scriptures!

Then presenting them specifically should be a piece of cake for you!

Let's start with this much:

The two testaments of the Bible contain wills or covenants between God and man.

The inheritance received by humans who qualify as heirs under either testament is everlasting life. Those who do not qualify simply perish.

The only way to become an heir to eternal life under the first covenant was to never sin. However, there was a fault in that first testament in that all mankind sinned!

Since the first covenant contained a fault, God created a second or New Testament Covenant.

And the Lord God commanded the man saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die. (Genesis 2:16-17)

God did not suggest or recommend that man not eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. He commanded it! Likewise, God informed mankind (both of them) what the consequence of violating God's commandment would be -- death.

This was the first covenant between God and man. I created you, if you follow my command you will have continued life, if you disobey my command you will die.

Throughout the entire Bible, the wages or consequence of disobeying God's commandments is always death:

For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.   (Romans 6:23)

Where sin is defined as:

Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law. (I John 3:4)

But there was a fault in this first covenant, in that all of mankind sinned by disobeying God's laws:

Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed unto all men, for that all have sinned: (Romans 5:12)

Since the first covenant contained faults, God created a second or New Testament:

But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises. For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second. (Hebrews 8:6-7)

========================================================================

See if you can find any fault with that part before I continue.

So far so good, it seems, although I could quibble on some details, but will leave that for now.

The reason I ask that is because the vast majority of Christians are taught that mankind is born with an immortal soul.

Consequently for these traditional Christians, death must be interpreted to be something other than death! This contradicts the Bible, which states that the unsaved die, perish, and are lost and gone for eternity. That is the end, or death, of them.

Satan lied when he informed Eve that she would live forever, "Ye shall not surely die." Christianity has widely accepted that lie as truth ever since.

If a person subscribes to man's being born with immortality, with an immortal soul or spirit, the scriptures will have no meaning to that person. And this should be obvious to anyone.

For example, God said the consequences of eating the forbidden fruit was death. If man lives forever, then death cannot really mean death -- so those believing in man's immortality would get into "interpreting" death to be something other than death. I'm not interested in that futility.

Neither am I, as I fully agree with you about that scriptural truth.

But if you are open to the possibility that mankind can perish, never to live again, then the above explanation should make sense to you.

I'm not picking on you -- and I don't know much about you. I just do not want to waste our time.

Oh well, let me know if I should continue. You won't have any trouble with it. Whether one believes the Bible or not -- it really is a very logical book.

Thanks

Let's do it then, let's continue, let's get to the nitty gritty, shall we?!

And, as always, may the truth win out.

However, that is not easy, and we may end up still having to agree to differ.

Ah well.....

[ttruscott]

Quote:
And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die: (Genesis 3:4)

Satan lied when he informed Eve that she would live forever, "Ye shall not surely die." Christianity has widely accepted that lie as truth ever since.

Have you considered that IF Eve knew she was an elect of GOD and therefore under HIS promise of eternal life in heaven and IF she knew all spirits were created to be eternal, THEN he wasss not telling her a lie but a truth to suck her into proving her faithfulness to HIS truth by the disobedience of eating!

This seems more plausible to me that that she would just accept the lie for no reason, though I know of your vested interest in the Church believing this lie.

If Eve knew she was "under HIS promise of eternal life in heaven," as you say.

How could she also know that:

If she ate of the forbidden fruit, she would die?

I suggest she thought it was a lie not the truth...she knew as an eternally living elect she would never die spiritually.

How can anyone accept both of those contradictory statements to be true? Either God or the serpent lied.

GOD didn't lie, what she did not know, being new to physicality, was that her physical body was mortal and IT could die so she applied the meaning of eternal death to the command, not physical death.

God promised the "hope of eternal life" before the world began. He did not promise "eternal life" to all mankind.

My theology separates everyone created in HIS image in Sheol before the physical universe was created who all were offered eternal life if they would accept YHWH's deity and the promise of salvation FROM the sinners, both the eternally doomed demons and the sinful but good seed, who are born as humans enslaved to sin. Only elect humans are under the promise of salvation, the non-elect may hear the call but it is not focused on them except to separate any sinful believers out from among them or to prove they never will answer the call and must be banished to the outer darkness.

Eternal life was promised to all in Sheol pre-earth.
On earth the promise and the gift of eternal life is given only to the elect who are sinful but have faith in Christ already, though they repress it, loving sin more, Rom 1.

[ttruscott]

Quote:
And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die: (Genesis 3:4)

Satan lied when he informed Eve that she would live forever, "Ye shall not surely die." Christianity has widely accepted that lie as truth ever since.

Have you considered that IF Eve knew she was an elect of GOD and therefore under HIS promise of eternal life in heaven and IF she knew all spirits were created to be eternal, THEN he wasss not telling her a lie but a truth to suck her into proving her faithfulness to HIS truth by the disobedience of eating!

This seems more plausible to me that that she would just accept the lie for no reason, though I know of your vested interest in the Church believing this lie.

Your question is based on your two ifs, which reflect "your vested interest" in them being likely and therefore plausible.

Indeed exactly. It is my interpretation which I do find plausible for the blasphemies it puts to rest. Since there is no one verse that can be interpreted to claim that our pre-existence is false, I will stick to it.

They are neither; "Eve knew" neither.
Man was not, and is not, a spirit.

These two statement which you present as facts but which are mere interpretations as they are unproven, are merely a reflection of your own vested interest in your belief that mankind were never and are not spirits.

Why are you allowed to do this and I am not?

[myth-one.com]

Since there is no one verse that can be interpreted to claim that our pre-existence is false, I will stick to it.

Who needs a verse?

Pre-exist: To exist before you exist.

It's an oxymoron.

[ttruscott]

Since there is no one verse that can be interpreted to claim that our pre-existence is false, I will stick to it.

Who needs a verse?

Pre-exist: To exist before you exist.

It's an oxymoron.

Although I do try to avoid "pre-exist" it is so commonly used (wrongly as you say) that I too get caught sometimes. I of course was referring to a pre-earthly or pre-conception (as human) existence, an existence before we become human.

[Checkpoint]

Quote:
And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die: (Genesis 3:4)

Satan lied when he informed Eve that she would live forever, "Ye shall not surely die." Christianity has widely accepted that lie as truth ever since.

Have you considered that IF Eve knew she was an elect of GOD and therefore under HIS promise of eternal life in heaven and IF she knew all spirits were created to be eternal, THEN he wasss not telling her a lie but a truth to suck her into proving her faithfulness to HIS truth by the disobedience of eating!

This seems more plausible to me that that she would just accept the lie for no reason, though I know of your vested interest in the Church believing this lie.

Your question is based on your two ifs, which reflect "your vested interest" in them being likely and therefore plausible.

Indeed exactly. It is my interpretation which I do find plausible for the blasphemies it puts to rest. Since there is no one verse that can be interpreted to claim that our pre-existence is false, I will stick to it.

They are neither; "Eve knew" neither.
Man was not, and is not, a spirit.

These two statement which you present as facts but which are mere interpretations as they are unproven, are merely a reflection of your own vested interest in your belief that mankind were never and are not spirits.

Why are you allowed to do this and I am not?

Well now, that sorts things out nicely, huh?

Whatever, we are all "allowed to do this", which I presume refers to express our viewpoint.

Including your PCE one every time you post.