Paul changed Jesus' message.

[dio9]

The difference between Jesus message and Paul's is simply the dominion under God now or later.Paul taught God's dominion would come when Jesus returned. Until then Paul gathered people to wait for it. Paul's message was not to change the world but to endure the world . Jesus 'was to change the way things are done in this world. The difference between change and endurance are clear.

That said the original disciples of Jesus were about actually creating an independent Judea. Remember they were zealots who believed in the messianic prophecies of Israel. even Jesus' beloved disciples John and James asked Jesus to sit at his right hand in the kingdom. They believed until the end that meant the establishment of a real land liberated and independent under God not Caesar.

This focus didn't fade away until 10 or 20 years later and the destruction of the Temple. When Paul's gentile ministry led to and the getilization of the Church. Not thought of as a church by James John and Peter, it changed focus from Jewish messiah ism to Christian forgiveness endure sacrifice and waiting for Christ's return.

The point this rambling revelation is Jesus and his disciples believed in changing the status quo from a Provence in the Roman empire to an independent state under God not Caesar. Paul did not hold this independence belief, he was content to remain part of the Empire , with his gentile ministry he could do nothing else and changed the focus of Jesus' kingdom message.

please comment agree or disagree.

[dio9]

[Replying to post 9 by JP Cusick]

Jesus was not delivered to the Jews. He was delivered to the Romans.

[Realworldjack]

The difference between Jesus message and Paul's is simply the dominion under God now or later.Paul taught God's dominion would come when Jesus returned. Until then Paul gathered people to wait for it. Paul's message was not to change the world but to endure the world . Jesus 'was to change the way things are done in this world. The difference between change and endurance are clear.

That said the original disciples of Jesus were about actually creating an independent Judea. Remember they were zealots who believed in the messianic prophecies of Israel. even Jesus' beloved disciples John and James asked Jesus to sit at his right hand in the kingdom. They believed until the end that meant the establishment of a real land liberated and independent under God not Caesar.

This focus didn't fade away until 10 or 20 years later and the destruction of the Temple. When Paul's gentile ministry led to and the getilization of the Church. Not thought of as a church by James John and Peter, it changed focus from Jewish messiah ism to Christian forgiveness endure sacrifice and waiting for Christ's return.

The point this rambling revelation is Jesus and his disciples believed in changing the status quo from a Provence in the Roman empire to an independent state under God not Caesar. Paul did not hold this independence belief, he was content to remain part of the Empire , with his gentile ministry he could do nothing else and changed the focus of Jesus' kingdom message.

please comment agree or disagree.

What you say here is not exactly accurate. Simply because Paul, and Jesus were saying different things does not in any way mean, Paul changed the message of Jesus.

A lot of what you say above is true, but it is common knowledge, and is in fact revealed in the Bible itself. The message of Jesus, by His own admission was intended for Israel alone, and not to the Gentiles. As an example, when there was a Gentile women who asked Jesus for something, Jesus responded, "should I take the food off the table of the children, and feed it to the dogs." This is a clear indication that the ministry of Jesus, was for the Jews alone, on top of the fact that Jesus also said, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel."

That said the original disciples of Jesus were about actually creating an independent Judea. Remember they were zealots who believed in the messianic prophecies of Israel. even Jesus' beloved disciples John and James asked Jesus to sit at his right hand in the kingdom. They believed until the end that meant the establishment of a real land liberated and independent under God not Caesar.

You are correct, and as you have just demonstrated, this was clearly revealed in the Bible, it is not something that was hidden. In fact, even John the Baptist was confused on the issue,which is why he was so confident when he confronted Herod, concerning his sin.

John certainly must have been under the impression that Jesus was to set up the kingdom, because when he continues in prison, and Jesus did not seem to be coming to the rescue, John sent some of his own disciples to ask, "are you the Christ to come? Or should we look for another?"

At any rate, once the Jews rejected Jesus as the Messiah, and had him Crucified, the message then was to go to the Gentiles as well. But this did not occur all at once. Remember, Peter had to be given a vision, years after the death of Jesus, before he would even go into the house of a Gentile.

There is a lot to get into, and consider here, as you can see, but it is not as though Paul changed the message of Jesus, rather it was the rejection of Jesus by the Jews, that changed things.

[JehovahsWitness]

The people who wrote the book and the readers of the book were about a restoration of independence. Ask any Rabbi.

Why would I care what "any Rabbi" thinks? If I recall correctly it was the "respected" religious leaders of his day that Jesus called "whitewashed graves" and "serpents" and that eventually schemed to have Christ killed. Evidently attending some higher school of religious learning does not render one immune to twisted thinking and Satanic falsehoods. I certainly don't look to the religious "clergy" of Judaism for any spiritual guidance.


I will take this opportunity to point out my question was not what the Roman authorities believed nor what Rabbis past or present believe but what we can deduce about what Jesus himself believed.

Jesus ... believed in changing the status quo from a Provence in the Roman empire to an independent state under God not Caesar.

I was seeking some specific biblical references for the above.



JW

[dio9]

The point is Paul was a Roman citizen , He supported Roman authority. see Rom 13:4.
Romans 13:4
For the one in authority is Gods servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for rulers do not bear the sword for no reason. They are Gods servants, agents of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer.


Jesus on the other hand was a Jew , no Jew would submit to Roman authority. Jesus criticized it and told his disciples not to be them.

Mark 10:42
42 Jesus called them together and said, You know that those who are regarded as rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and their high officials exercise authority over them. 43 Not so with you. Instead, whoever wants to become great among you must be your servant,

Can you see? Paul said submit and obey them even if their way is lording it over you .
While Jesus said don't lord it if you want be the leader , that's not the way of authority, rather you should than lord it, serve them.
Can you see the difference between lording it with the sword and Jesus' way? Jesus was teaching God's way , rather than Man's way . Jesus said don't obey the sword's way , there is a better way the right way .
Based on these particular verses I'm saying Paul changed the thrust of Jesus original message from God's way to the status quo's way, which was Man's way.
Jesus said Change; Paul said endure.

[1213]

yes but still Jesus was leading a messianic movement , a movement to restore the promised land to God ...

Actually, if we believe what the Bible tells, Jesus was not leading the change in land, but leading the change in people's hearts. His who teaching is around the idea that person should be born anew.

Jesus answered, "My kingdom is not of this world. If my kingdom were of this world, then my servants would fight, that I wouldn't be delivered to the Jews. But now my kingdom is not from here."
John 18:36

"The Kingdom of God doesn't come with observation; neither will they say, 'Look, here!' or, 'Look, there!' for behold, the Kingdom of God is within you."
Luke 17:20-21

Jesus answered him, "Most assuredly, I tell you, unless one is born anew, he can't see the Kingdom of God." Nicodemus said to him, "How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother's womb, and be born?" Jesus answered, "Most assuredly I tell you, unless one is born of water and spirit, he can't enter into the Kingdom of God! That which is born of the flesh is flesh. That which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Don't marvel that I said to you, 'You must be born anew.'
John 3:3-7

It is the spirit who gives life. The flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and are life.
John 6:63

The kingdom of God is spiritual kingdom that is in peoples hearts. It cant be destroyed by any earthly means.

[dio9]

[Replying to post 15 by 1213]

[dio9]

[Replying to post 15 by 1213]

God came to earth in Jesus Christ because the world is important to God. The whole goal is restoring the imminence of God in Man. God is in heaven, He sent Jesus to bring His spirit the spirit of God to earth. That God could live in Man again.

[Prince]

Jesus gives the words that were given to Him to His genuine followers. Paul never bothered to get those words so he never even knew the message of Jesus.

Some of the words of the Son of man are;

"Anyone who acts in truth comes to the light so his deeds are revealed as works of God."

" Whoever speaks on his own seems his own glory but He who seems the glory of the one who sent him is truthful and there is no righteousness in him. "

[alwayson]

The difference between Jesus message and Paul's is simply the dominion under God now or later.Paul taught God's dominion would come when Jesus returned. Until then Paul gathered people to wait for it. Paul's message was not to change the world but to endure the world . Jesus 'was to change the way things are done in this world. The difference between change and endurance are clear.

That said the original disciples of Jesus were about actually creating an independent Judea. Remember they were zealots who believed in the messianic prophecies of Israel. even Jesus' beloved disciples John and James asked Jesus to sit at his right hand in the kingdom. They believed until the end that meant the establishment of a real land liberated and independent under God not Caesar.

This focus didn't fade away until 10 or 20 years later and the destruction of the Temple. When Paul's gentile ministry led to and the getilization of the Church. Not thought of as a church by James John and Peter, it changed focus from Jewish messiah ism to Christian forgiveness endure sacrifice and waiting for Christ's return.

The point this rambling revelation is Jesus and his disciples believed in changing the status quo from a Provence in the Roman empire to an independent state under God not Caesar. Paul did not hold this independence belief, he was content to remain part of the Empire , with his gentile ministry he could do nothing else and changed the focus of Jesus' kingdom message.

please comment agree or disagree.

Do you understand Paul's letters are earlier than the Gospels?

[liamconnor]

The difference between Jesus message and Paul's is simply the dominion under God now or later.Paul taught God's dominion would come when Jesus returned. Until then Paul gathered people to wait for it. Paul's message was not to change the world but to endure the world . Jesus 'was to change the way things are done in this world. The difference between change and endurance are clear.

That said the original disciples of Jesus were about actually creating an independent Judea. Remember they were zealots who believed in the messianic prophecies of Israel. even Jesus' beloved disciples John and James asked Jesus to sit at his right hand in the kingdom. They believed until the end that meant the establishment of a real land liberated and independent under God not Caesar.

This focus didn't fade away until 10 or 20 years later and the destruction of the Temple. When Paul's gentile ministry led to and the getilization of the Church. Not thought of as a church by James John and Peter, it changed focus from Jewish messiah ism to Christian forgiveness endure sacrifice and waiting for Christ's return.

The point this rambling revelation is Jesus and his disciples believed in changing the status quo from a Provence in the Roman empire to an independent state under God not Caesar. Paul did not hold this independence belief, he was content to remain part of the Empire , with his gentile ministry he could do nothing else and changed the focus of Jesus' kingdom message.

please comment agree or disagree.

I disagree to the following:

The point this rambling revelation is Jesus and his disciples believed in changing the status quo from a Provence in the Roman empire to an independent state under God

That Jesus' disciples expected this is quite clear from the gospels. That Jesus was intending this was anything but clear. We have zero criticisms of Jesus against the Roman state, zero cries to bear arms. Of all his interactions with people it is Gentiles (i.e. Romans) that receive unambiguous praise. He foresaw a day when people from east and west (Gentiles) would sit at Abraham's table.

Jesus believed in a universal kingdom of God. The independence of Israel played no part in his theology. The same is true of Paul. The difference between Paul and Jesus is that where Jesus was primarily focused on the kingdom of God, Paul was focused on Jesus as the one who brought it about.