Hate the Sin and Love the Sinner

[micatala]

Many Christians, when accused of being hateful or intolerant because of their statements concerning sin in general or examples of people who are in their view sinning, respond with the phrase 'hate the sin but love the sinner.'

What does this exactly mean?

To ask this question in 'loaded form,' is this phrase just a dodge to try and avoid the criticism that some CHristians harbor hateful attitudes or engage in hateful behavior?

Finally, what is the Biblical justification for this statement? Is there any?

[melikio]

It almost sounds like AIDS is his punishment for his sin of being gay.

Confused, I was going to ask SpikedLillac the exact same thing; but you beat me to it. (I'm patiently awaiting some clarification from her specifically.)

Even so, it always amazes me that some people actually believe/think they know exactly why/how a person is being "punished" by God...etc.

As reality has shown me, it's quite typically NOT that simple to know how/why to come to such conclusions. That is, we could also assume why various individuals have been "rewarded" and others not. We cannot come close to knowing God's thoughts; even the Bible makes that clear enough.

Still, considering the PAIN any one of us may have to endure in this life (such as the death of a loved-one), I can see how it would lead us to believe that some particualr thing/act is bad or sinful; that alone, can transform our thinking (even our actions).

To me, being homosexual is NOT a sin. I believe it is natural and that many people are born with the predisposition to possess as strong a drive to be "homosexual" as some are "heterosexual". Not to say that I think ALL possible homosexual acts are "moral", but that a basic homosexual-orientation is not something that MUST be considered wrong or sinful. IF people are born that way (regardless of that eventually proven or not), then it's no more wrong than the predisposition of most people to be "sexy", "horny", and "lustful" period. You see, I don't see people chasing down behind HETEROSEXUALS hating the sins they commit casually and openly (and can be observed from nearly moment to moment nearly every day); where are the protests against that? Which "heterosexual" people have possibly been "punished" with "AIDS" for their "lifestyle"?

And still, no matter what we are "judging", as miticala implied recently, we should be careful about what/why we "hate" concerning a particualr "sin". After all, there are those who because of their beliefs will throw PAINT on an animal fur that someone is wearing; they HATE what they perceive to be a "sin" and act in a most extreme fashion toward it. I believe that is one of the main problems concerning "homosexuality" and "Christians" (per se):

Many have been not only TAUGHT to believe they hate homosexuality, but are also socially conditioned to ACT OUT concerning it. It's to the point (as with many things), that people commit sins, to make some needless point about how MUCH they HATE some particular sin. I mean, what is God's "punishment" for those who continually and erroneously hype the sin of another, yet they are harbor their own (perhaps similar) faults?

Recently, I've come to a most simple conclusion, that people DO judge others too harshly, and in general do not possess the type of "perfection" which affords them the right/privilege to CONDEMN other people as they would like. That is, ONLY God or Jesus can (or should be) passing the type of condemnation and disapproval that certain human beings believe they have the "authority" to.

From the extreme of killing-off "infidels" as SOME Muslims believe they must perform; to the incessant persecution of "homosexuals" that MANY Christians intend to evoke, I believe God's providence (in faith) should be regarded. After all, I could make a list of SINS of those most adamantly against "sin", likely of a magnitude that would dwarf the sin many are set to campaign against. That is, out of extreme or misplaced ZEAL, typically come offenses and sins which I seriously do not think/believe God "intended". It's just that religion not motivated and tempered by LOVE (compassion), is as DEADLY WRONG (in most cases) as seeking to cause direct harm to another.

As miticala implied earlier, people need to THINK more carefully about the "hate" they have for "sin". It's relatively easy for human beings to PLAY GOD or imagine they have His precise "thoughts" on a given matter or situation.

-Mel-

[SpikedLillac]

One day I was talking to an atheist about homosexuals. He made the comment of "I hate homosexuals. You're a Christian and the bible says that homosexuality is wrong so you must hate them too right?" I then commented that did not hate them in any way but that I thought that homosexuality was wrong. My father was gay and I loved him very very much. Right after my parents were divorced he went off with this guy and slept with him. That night he caught HIV. He dealed with the disease for about 19 years, then it turned to AIDS which spread to his brain gave him a stroke and he died. With all my heart I wish that he hadn't have been gay. If he hadn't been, I would still have a father today. My father was a wonderful man but he was gay. I HATE the sin but I loved the sinner.

On the subject of the ER victim. It can be very hard to love someone who decided to beat and bruise your children. When someone came into that Amish school and molested and killed those girls, did their parents show hatred toward the molesters and their families? No. The parents showed love for the families of the molesters. They forgave them. They comforted the families for their loss. One of the hardest things about being a Christian is not to judge or condemn but to love everyone. Jesus said to "love your neighbor as yourself." Period. He said to turn the other cheek and forgive. People may be evil and do bad things but it is not our place to deliver wrath. Now if someone breaks the law then it is the job of the police to arrest and punish because it is their job to enforce that law.

I am hoping I am taking the concept of your father being gay and getting AIDS as a result of it the wrong way. It almost sounds like AIDS is his punishment for his sin of being gay. I doubt that is what you meant, but I wanted to be sure.

In regards to the my ER patient and the Amish. The Amish people are better than I could be. But until you have been in that position, I don't know that you can say you would turn the other cheek and forgive. All I did was care for the child until they were transferred to Peds ICU and I wanted to kill the parents myself after seeing the improperly healed fractured ribs,arm bones, finger bones, and the burn that varied from healed and scarred to fresh 3rd degree burns. As I said to John, I hope you are never in the position where you are challenged in this area. I know I would fail. As I said before, it is their sin, they own it. The sin itself can't be evil unless a person commits it. How can you hate a concept? No, I say hate the sin but blame the sinner. I know the OT is riddled with the persecutions of many sinners. The NT, yes Christ says exactly what you say he says. But along his journey, does he also not condemn entire cities in his famous Woe to you in the city of xxx? And if we are to hate the sin but love the sinner and this is what Chirst preached, then how is it that any sinner will go to hell. Shouldn't Christ also hate the sin but love the sinner?

I did not in anyway say that it was his punishment. I'm just simply saying that if he hadn't have been gay, he wouldn't have slept with that guy and wouldn't have caught the disease. Period. I have concluded that homosexuality a sin because the bible has declared it so. I think God has called some acts wrong because of the consequences that result in doing such acts. He tells us that certain acts are wrong to protect us from that consequence. In Daniel Chapter 1: http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?bo ... xt=chapter Daniel told the king that eating the meat and drinking the wine was bad for them. So they tested 10 servants for Daniel that ate vegetables and 10 servants for king who ate meat. In the end Daniel's servants were in better health. One of the main health problems that I've seen in homosexuals (not all but majority) is HIV and AIDS. When my father died, I had many gay people tell me that if I ever needed to talk to someone about it I could talk to them because they had friends who died the same way. I don't hate homosexuals but I don't agree with what they do.

On the terms of the ER patients. I agree with you. I hope I never have to deal with something that would directly effect me like that. Just because God commands that I forgive does not mean that it would be easy. Jesus did say "Woe to you that does or think xxx" but the main reason that God sent his Son into the world was not to say shame on you and to hang out with the disciples. God sent Him because He had to die for the sinners of the world as an ultimate sacrifice. Before Jesus came, people had to find a perfect lamb without any blemishes and sacrifice that for their sins. A sacrifice in blood was the only way payment for sins. That lamb's blood didn't last for long. So God sent his only son into the world to pay for everyone's sins. That's how God loves the sinner. Now the only thing that a person has to do to be saved from death and hell is to believe that Jesus died for their sins and to accept him as Lord. But God gave us free will to make that decision. If they don't then they go to hell. Remember that person had the opprotunity to be saved but they chose not to believe.

[Confused]

In regards to AIDS, I was simply ensuring your position wasn't that it was a punishment from God. That is all. I understand your reasoning and don't disagree.

What person had the opportunity to be saved but chose not to? The ER patient? It was a child. Guilty only of not be able to protect themselves. So I don't follow your relevance.

[melikio]

I have concluded that homosexuality a sin because the bible has declared it so.

I stopped interpreting it as a "sin" a few years ago. In fact, once I realized that how the "Bible" could be "interpreted" concerning that area of human experience, I stopped agreeing that it was homosexuality was necessarily shameful or sinful.

And it's not just about AIDS and HIV (both of which and many other diseases affect straight people significantly), it is also and primarily about how people are often treated in the name of God (and various "religions").

I almost NEVER hear Christian people use the phrase "Hate the Sin and Love the Sinner" more HYPOCRITICALLY than when it relates to homosexuality.

Moreover, the way many who claim to be doing something "right" for God, prove mostly that they HATE homosexuals, by that which they approve of doing to homosexuals and what they will actually do themselves to the same.

It's a MASSIVE problem, that culture, tradition and religion have managed to sweep under the rug for a VERY LONG TIME. That is, the problems surrounding and stemming from how homosexual people are treated by the "majority", are far more serious than the issue of homosexuality itself has ever been. And if I had not experienced this myself (many times), I wouldn't be pointing it out here.

I honestly thought that things would get better for people like me about 20 years ago; but it didn't take me long to figure out that people DO HATE HOMOSEXUALS, just because they ARE homosexual. Now, the morality of it can be discussed and argued for a very long time to come, but in my eyes it comes back to HOW PEOPLE ARE TREATED concerning their sexual orientation (despite the reality some might see it as a "sin").

Sadly, with homosexuality the familiar phrase found in the title of this topic is typically transformed into:

"Hate the Sin and the Sinner".

That's about the size of it, in most cases. And homosexual people realixe this readily, though many of us handle it in different ways. Most interestingly, the number of people STILL protecting themselves by keeping it all a secret, is very significant; but not because of the fact that they believe the "Bible" defines it as a sin/wrong, but merely because they don't want to take on the abject hatred and rejection directed toward them, for something they no more "chose", than the color of their eyes. In fact, using the same Bible many use to say it's "wrong", many a case can be brought against those who have treated homosexuals "wrongly". And THAT (I believe) is exactly why many more people who are "gay", haven't really gotten the help or compassion they have needed ALL of their lives. Even so, facing all that hatred and rejection for MANY YEARS (most of their lives) makes them strong (or seemingly rebellious) in unique ways.

To put it simply, I don't think so many people consider the LOVE many homosexual people show/afford the multitudes of people who actually offend or "sin" against them. And until it's realized that no significant number of homosexual people will ever be changed by forcing religion ONTO them, the problems and struggles that many try to tackle via carnal means (forcing morality based upon religious interpretation), will likely never subside or be resolved.

Don't get me wrong; I know that some people believe homosexuality is "sinful", but it simply isn't to everyone who has considered what they Bible might be saying in reality. It IS something to leave between the individual and God, and that forces NO ONE to approve of it within themselves.

Those who LOVE (according to 1Cor13) can surely take a stand, but the manner in which many have allowed "love" to be defined as it relates to how they deal with homosexual people, brings REAL QUESTIONS to the concept of what "love" truly is. I think it's better err on the side of grace and liberty period; and I feel as strongly about that, as anyone who thinks/believes homosexuality is a "sin".

-Mel-

[SpikedLillac]

What person had the opportunity to be saved but chose not to? The ER patient? It was a child. Guilty only of not be able to protect themselves. So I don't follow your relevance.

I apologize for not splitting the paragraph. I was not talking about the ER patient. I was talking about this

But along his journey, does he also not condemn entire cities in his famous Woe to you in the city of xxx? And if we are to hate the sin but love the sinner and this is what Chirst preached, then how is it that any sinner will go to hell. Shouldn't Christ also hate the sin but love the sinner?

Quote:
I have concluded that homosexuality a sin because the bible has declared it so.

I stopped interpreting it as a "sin" a few years ago. In fact, once I realized that how the "Bible" could be "interpreted" concerning that area of human experience, I stopped agreeing that it was homosexuality was necessarily shameful or sinful.

And it's not just about AIDS and HIV (both of which and many other diseases affect straight people significantly), it is also and primarily about how people are often treated in the name of God (and various "religions").

I almost NEVER hear Christian people use the phrase "Hate the Sin and Love the Sinner" more HYPOCRITICALLY than when it relates to homosexuality.

Moreover, the way many who claim to be doing something "right" for God, prove mostly that they HATE homosexuals, by that which they approve of doing to homosexuals and what they will actually do themselves to the same.

It's a MASSIVE problem, that culture, tradition and religion have managed to sweep under the rug for a VERY LONG TIME. That is, the problems surrounding and stemming from how homosexual people are treated by the "majority", are far more serious than the issue of homosexuality itself has ever been. And if I had not experienced this myself (many times), I wouldn't be pointing it out here.

I honestly thought that things would get better for people like me about 20 years ago; but it didn't take me long to figure out that people DO HATE HOMOSEXUALS, just because they ARE homosexual. Now, the morality of it can be discussed and argued for a very long time to come, but in my eyes it comes back to HOW PEOPLE ARE TREATED concerning their sexual orientation (despite the reality some might see it as a "sin").

Sadly, with homosexuality the familiar phrase found in the title of this topic is typically transformed into:

"Hate the Sin and the Sinner".

That's about the size of it, in most cases. And homosexual people realixe this readily, though many of us handle it in different ways. Most interestingly, the number of people STILL protecting themselves by keeping it all a secret, is very significant; but not because of the fact that they believe the "Bible" defines it as a sin/wrong, but merely because they don't want to take on the abject hatred and rejection directed toward them, for something they no more "chose", than the color of their eyes. In fact, using the same Bible many use to say it's "wrong", many a case can be brought against those who have treated homosexuals "wrongly". And THAT (I believe) is exactly why many more people who are "gay", haven't really gotten the help or compassion they have needed ALL of their lives. Even so, facing all that hatred and rejection for MANY YEARS (most of their lives) makes them strong (or seemingly rebellious) in unique ways.

To put it simply, I don't think so many people consider the LOVE many homosexual people show/afford the multitudes of people who actually offend or "sin" against them. And until it's realized that no significant number of homosexual people will ever be changed by forcing religion ONTO them, the problems and struggles that many try to tackle via carnal means (forcing morality based upon religious interpretation), will likely never subside or be resolved.

Don't get me wrong; I know that some people believe homosexuality is "sinful", but it simply isn't to everyone who has considered what they Bible might be saying in reality. It IS something to leave between the individual and God, and that forces NO ONE to approve of it within themselves.

Those who LOVE (according to 1Cor13) can surely take a stand, but the manner in which many have allowed "love" to be defined as it relates to how they deal with homosexual people, brings REAL QUESTIONS to the concept of what "love" truly is. I think it's better err on the side of grace and liberty period; and I feel as strongly about that, as anyone who thinks/believes homosexuality is a "sin".

-Mel-

I agree with you that homosexuals are treated unfairly because of their sexual orientation. As a person, I do not see them any differently than someone who is heterosexual except that they are homosexual. I don't see them as any less of a person who should be treated with respect and dignity. I have many friends who are homosexual. Even if I knew them before they "came out of the closet," our friendship did not change in anyway after they did so. They know my opinion but I can't change their mind and I don't condemn them.
Like you had said if the issue is between the "individual and God" and if a person doesn't agree with the act of homosexuality then thats their opinion. One can not take someone else's opinion on something away from them. I'm sorry to say, if you had read how I started my story with an atheist bringing up that they "hated homosexuals." Christians are not the only ones that have that opinion. Not all people (Christian or otherwise) think homosexuals are any less of a person than anyone else.

[melikio]

I agree with you that homosexuals are treated unfairly because of their sexual orientation. As a person, I do not see them any differently than someone who is heterosexual except that they are homosexual. I don't see them as any less of a person who should be treated with respect and dignity. I have many friends who are homosexual. Even if I knew them before they "came out of the closet," our friendship did not change in anyway after they did so. They know my opinion but I can't change their mind and I don't condemn them.
Like you had said if the issue is between the "individual and God" and if a person doesn't agree with the act of homosexuality then thats their opinion. One can not take someone else's opinion on something away from them. I'm sorry to say, if you had read how I started my story with an atheist bringing up that they "hated homosexuals." Christians are not the only ones that have that opinion. Not all people (Christian or otherwise) think homosexuals are any less of a person than anyone else.

SpikedLillac, I will say first and foremost, that my comments weren't aimed AT you.

None of my response was meant to judge you as an individual per se; but I do often piggy-back on certain thoughts to make a point or two. I try to be rational most of the time, but my emotions for "leak" out regularly... as I prefer to communicate what I "feel" as well as what I "think", when human sexuality is discussed directly or indirectly. I WANT things to become personal, but not necessarily "confrontational".

I have friends like you FOR SURE. They love me for the person I am, and they range from secular to very religious. Many know me from the days when I could have won an Academy Award, for playing a "straight" guy. And they still accept me, althought they know I have about as much interest in the opposite sex, as watching paint dry on a wall.

I definitely caught the fact that you said an "atheist" brought up that they hated homosexuals. I've experienced similar things. I wish I could have responded at the time, but I really wasn't allowed to; and that reflects back upon the BIG problem for many who are homosexual; they cannot (by this society's standards open up and defend themselves). Instead of many addressing the problem of "mistreatment" of other human beings, in the name of tradition, values, religion and God... they often look the other way, and stand up for something other than defending those who really cannot defend themselves.

I know that kind of thing MUST change, because the the "Hate the Sin, Punish the Sinner" mentality is SO VERY SELECTIVE, when human beings get their hands on it. People give amazing amounts of lip-service to the original phrase I just parodied, because they would no more DESIRE to have society at large attempt to press or mold them against their will, than the average human being who happens to be "homosexual".

So, what I'm saying, is that so many people have taken the "phrase", and applied it to have meaning as translated below:

"Hate the sin..." = Homosexuality, is THE primary object of our moral agression or interest. We'll deem IT completely unacceptable, even if nothing else ever seems to be regarded (near as much).

"...Love the Sinner" = Treat homosexual people "severely". Remind them (for their own good) that WE know what's best for them and their makeup as human beings. Force them to either BE "straight", ACT "straight" or NEVER allow us to KNOW they are really there. After all, we (the normal humans) cannot be bothered with a full set of issues which we've been taught or conditioned to simply ignore or reject.

Now again, this isn't pointing AT any other participant on the board or on the thread, but the "shoe" does FIT the way many people actually think (of homosexuality). I know this, because I have faced it HEAD-ON (directly to the forehead) so very many times (and I'm just one person out of many who have also faced the same attitudes and mindsets).

I wouldn't at this point support the idea that ONLY "Christians" are often hatefully biased against homosexual people, but am capable of recognizing the "religious" methods by which the "hatred" is packaged in religion. It wasn't "easy" seeing that stuff for what it was; I never wanted to think, that something I thought was to be used lovingly and compassionately, could be used so effectively as a social assault-weapon.

I mean, not ALL atheists are anti-religious, and surely many consider the concepts of right/wrong they pick up from "Christians" and others. And if I were a straight guy, I have to admit that I probably wouldn't see nearly as much WRONG with the way/s homosexual people are treated in the name of God, the Bible or religion as many others cannot, do not or will not see.

The horrific attitudes and behaviors often leveled at some being labeled as "love", has certainly had its effects upon religion and society as a whole. If that's hard for anyone to see, just take a look at the latest religious extremism (terrorism) that has managed to get everyone's attention. I mean, people who preach a message from "God" holding a GUN in one hand and a BIBLE in the other, are surely confusing the world one person at a time (and likely more than that).

As it now stands, the whole "Love the Sinner, Hate the Sin" cliche' is something I find on a line between being a "joke" or an outright "insult" to the very sensibilities of those it is often AIMED AT.

So, it's not YOU (Lillac) that I was speaking to (though I seemingly responded to you), it's almost always society and religion in general I'm adressing. FOr as I look back upon what I know and have experienced, I know very well that it's all BIGGER than me or just one or a few others.

People are pretty good at DEHUMANIZING homosexuals; and IF God exists (as I tend to believe He does), I see no way that He is approving of such behavior (no matter how any one of us might seek to justify it). I remember days when I virtually prayed for God to KILL ME, because I felt like I couldn't take anymore of what seemed like the unnecessary torture, that many people were so accustomed to dishing out. My heart would always respon with something like: "Don't they know homosexual people are human?" "Don't they care?"

I remember crying a LOT about just living, because despite all the religion and traditions many claim are great, they were used as weights upon me, that I never asked for nor proved to anyone I deserved. And while I'm not bitter about what I've been through, I can certainly make it clear to anyone that I am sensitive enough to know and remember what I've been through (just because I was/am a homosexual person). And THAT is just as real as anyone's beliefs or interpretations of whatever.

-Mel-

[Confused]

What person had the opportunity to be saved but chose not to? The ER patient? It was a child. Guilty only of not be able to protect themselves. So I don't follow your relevance.

I apologize for not splitting the paragraph. I was not talking about the ER patient. I was talking about this

But along his journey, does he also not condemn entire cities in his famous Woe to you in the city of xxx? And if we are to hate the sin but love the sinner and this is what Chirst preached, then how is it that any sinner will go to hell. Shouldn't Christ also hate the sin but love the sinner?

Ok, now your making sense ( I get confused easily ). Yes, based on scripture the cities did have the opportunity to be saved, but chose not to.

I am sorry about your father. I would think you would also be proud that he could finally come to terms with who he was. THough his life was cut short because of a virus, I would hope that he lived his last years at least being comfortable in his own skin. I can't pretend to imagine the difficult position homosexuals are put in. I can grasp a general udnerstanding from my conversations from Mel, but I agree with both you and him in that they are still humans. They still deserve the same respect that any other human does.

[SpikedLillac]

I agree with you that homosexuals are treated unfairly because of their sexual orientation. As a person, I do not see them any differently than someone who is heterosexual except that they are homosexual. I don't see them as any less of a person who should be treated with respect and dignity. I have many friends who are homosexual. Even if I knew them before they "came out of the closet," our friendship did not change in anyway after they did so. They know my opinion but I can't change their mind and I don't condemn them.
Like you had said if the issue is between the "individual and God" and if a person doesn't agree with the act of homosexuality then thats their opinion. One can not take someone else's opinion on something away from them. I'm sorry to say, if you had read how I started my story with an atheist bringing up that they "hated homosexuals." Christians are not the only ones that have that opinion. Not all people (Christian or otherwise) think homosexuals are any less of a person than anyone else.

SpikedLillac, I will say first and foremost, that my comments weren't aimed AT you.

None of my response was meant to judge you as an individual per se; but I do often piggy-back on certain thoughts to make a point or two. I try to be rational most of the time, but my emotions for "leak" out regularly... as I prefer to communicate what I "feel" as well as what I "think", when human sexuality is discussed directly or indirectly. I WANT things to become personal, but not necessarily "confrontational".

I have friends like you FOR SURE. They love me for the person I am, and they range from secular to very religious. Many know me from the days when I could have won an Academy Award, for playing a "straight" guy. And they still accept me, althought they know I have about as much interest in the opposite sex, as watching paint dry on a wall.

I definitely caught the fact that you said an "atheist" brought up that they hated homosexuals. I've experienced similar things. I wish I could have responded at the time, but I really wasn't allowed to; and that reflects back upon the BIG problem for many who are homosexual; they cannot (by this society's standards open up and defend themselves). Instead of many addressing the problem of "mistreatment" of other human beings, in the name of tradition, values, religion and God... they often look the other way, and stand up for something other than defending those who really cannot defend themselves.

I know that kind of thing MUST change, because the the "Hate the Sin, Punish the Sinner" mentality is SO VERY SELECTIVE, when human beings get their hands on it. People give amazing amounts of lip-service to the original phrase I just parodied, because they would no more DESIRE to have society at large attempt to press or mold them against their will, than the average human being who happens to be "homosexual".

So, what I'm saying, is that so many people have taken the "phrase", and applied it to have meaning as translated below:

"Hate the sin..." = Homosexuality, is THE primary object of our moral agression or interest. We'll deem IT completely unacceptable, even if nothing else ever seems to be regarded (near as much).

"...Love the Sinner" = Treat homosexual people "severely". Remind them (for their own good) that WE know what's best for them and their makeup as human beings. Force them to either BE "straight", ACT "straight" or NEVER allow us to KNOW they are really there. After all, we (the normal humans) cannot be bothered with a full set of issues which we've been taught or conditioned to simply ignore or reject.

Now again, this isn't pointing AT any other participant on the board or on the thread, but the "shoe" does FIT the way many people actually think (of homosexuality). I know this, because I have faced it HEAD-ON (directly to the forehead) so very many times (and I'm just one person out of many who have also faced the same attitudes and mindsets).

I wouldn't at this point support the idea that ONLY "Christians" are often hatefully biased against homosexual people, but am capable of recognizing the "religious" methods by which the "hatred" is packaged in religion. It wasn't "easy" seeing that stuff for what it was; I never wanted to think, that something I thought was to be used lovingly and compassionately, could be used so effectively as a social assault-weapon.

I mean, not ALL atheists are anti-religious, and surely many consider the concepts of right/wrong they pick up from "Christians" and others. And if I were a straight guy, I have to admit that I probably wouldn't see nearly as much WRONG with the way/s homosexual people are treated in the name of God, the Bible or religion as many others cannot, do not or will not see.

The horrific attitudes and behaviors often leveled at some being labeled as "love", has certainly had its effects upon religion and society as a whole. If that's hard for anyone to see, just take a look at the latest religious extremism (terrorism) that has managed to get everyone's attention. I mean, people who preach a message from "God" holding a GUN in one hand and a BIBLE in the other, are surely confusing the world one person at a time (and likely more than that).

As it now stands, the whole "Love the Sinner, Hate the Sin" cliche' is something I find on a line between being a "joke" or an outright "insult" to the very sensibilities of those it is often AIMED AT.

So, it's not YOU (Lillac) that I was speaking to (though I seemingly responded to you), it's almost always society and religion in general I'm adressing. FOr as I look back upon what I know and have experienced, I know very well that it's all BIGGER than me or just one or a few others.

People are pretty good at DEHUMANIZING homosexuals; and IF God exists (as I tend to believe He does), I see no way that He is approving of such behavior (no matter how any one of us might seek to justify it). I remember days when I virtually prayed for God to KILL ME, because I felt like I couldn't take anymore of what seemed like the unnecessary torture, that many people were so accustomed to dishing out. My heart would always respon with something like: "Don't they know homosexual people are human?" "Don't they care?"

I remember crying a LOT about just living, because despite all the religion and traditions many claim are great, they were used as weights upon me, that I never asked for nor proved to anyone I deserved. And while I'm not bitter about what I've been through, I can certainly make it clear to anyone that I am sensitive enough to know and remember what I've been through (just because I was/am a homosexual person). And THAT is just as real as anyone's beliefs or interpretations of whatever.

-Mel-

I'm sorry for what you've been through. People do "dehumanize" homosexuals. I wish they wouldn't. Its not fair that they do so. I hope that one day people would stop persecuting homosexuals just because of their sexual orientation.

[melikio]

I'm sorry for what you've been through. People do "dehumanize" homosexuals. I wish they wouldn't. Its not fair that they do so. I hope that one day people would stop persecuting homosexuals just because of their sexual orientation.

Thanks for the very kind words; many people prove that they don't feel as you do.

For a long time, a very long time I tried to ignore the truly hateful use of religion to change people.

911 kind of energized an awareness in me that religion CAN indeed be weaponized, fueled by "hatred" (even if it's never admitted).

Sad to say, that by studying the anatomy of the extremist mindset, I made several correlations to the manner in which some handle "sinners" as "Christians" (especially). I couldn't get the reality out of my head, and it's still there to this day. It was depressing to realize, and I nearly lost my trust in "Christianity" completely. It's as if by some miracle, I held onto the love of Jesus Christ, while the rest of my world crumbled to spiritual/intellectual dust.

The neo-conservative movement is something I couldn't help but notice (around the time of 911) was attached to new levels of oppressive attitudes that people seemed to justify in God's name. "Hate the Sin and Love the Sinner", became an expression to excuse what many would do to change people like me. Thus what I began to view as a more casual attitude toward punishing and scapegoating homosexual people. And it didn't shock me to see that homosexual people would fight back as much as they have. I don't particularly care for some of the battles I've seen waged by the more extreme gay mindsets which exist, but I think I understand part of the catalyst for those existing battles.

So, the "Hate the Sin and Love the Sinner" saying, ultimately has the same effect on many "homosexuals" that Confederate Flags and Swastikas may tend to have upon others. Perhaps many mean "well" by using them, but they are nonetheless tainted by many whose use has associated negativity or evil with them.

-Mel-