JESUS IS NOT YHWH

[onewithhim]

Jesus prayed to YHWH, the Father, not to himself. (E.g., Matthew 26:39,42; John 11:41,42; John 17:1-26.) Would he have been praying to himself?

He continually referred to himself as "God's SON," not YHWH Himself. (John 5:19; John 8:28,29; John 10:36; John 17:1.) Even the Jews who hated him recognized that fact (John 19:7). Can he be his own Son?

He applied Isaiah 61:1,2 to himself, at Luke 4:17-21, showing that he was the one anointed BY YHWH, and sent BY YHWH. There are incontrovertibly two Persons mentioned in the passage, and YHWH is the One calling the shots. The anointed one does what YHWH wants. How could they be the same Person?

Psalm 110 is also applied to Jesus at Acts 2:34,35. He is the "Lord," or Messiah, that YHWH speaks to. Was YHWH talking to Himself?


I think that just these few points would show plainly that Jesus is not YHWH. Can anyone explain how THESE REFERENCES, ABOVE, can possibly agree with the premise that Jesus is YHWH? I'm not asking for other Scriptures to be brought in without commenting ON the verses I am asking about. Please give me your reasoning concerning these particular Scriptures. Thank you.

[Checkpoint]

[Replying to post 239 by Monta]

Jesus is Both Lord and Christ. And There is only One Lord Not Two or Three Lords.

So, what do you see the term "Lord" means when it may refer to the Father or to the Son?

[Monta]

[Replying to post 239 by Monta]

Jesus is Both Lord and Christ. And There is only One Lord Not Two or Three Lords.

So, what do you see the term "Lord" means when it may refer to the Father or to the Son?

The Lord is the Word therefore the essential good and truth.
The reason why the Lord is used in different situations is not because
there are various principles in the Lord, but because his divine is variously
received by man.
The Lord was God of the most ancient church and called Jehovah, the Ancient Church, Isrealitish Church and then Christian church.

[onewithhim]

[Replying to post 239 by Monta]

Jesus is Both Lord and Christ. And There is only One Lord Not Two or Three Lords.

So, what do you see the term "Lord" means when it may refer to the Father or to the Son?

The Lord is the Word therefore the essential good and truth.
The reason why the Lord is used in different situations is not because
there are various principles in the Lord, but because his divine is variously
received by man.
The Lord was God of the most ancient church and called Jehovah, the Ancient Church, Isrealitish Church and then Christian church.

It is very clear that Jehovah and Jesus are two different individuals, as has been brought out on this thread. Jesus is the Lord of human lords (or even spirit lords) because Jehovah says so. He has said that His Son must be honored as the King of His Kingdom, because His Son died on behalf of all of mankind who would accept it.

Jehovah is presented, in the original Hebrew texts of the Hebrew Scriptures, as the Most High God and is consistently identified by the use of His personal name, "YHWH." This appears 7,000 times throughout the Scriptures, if you look at the Hebrew text. With God's name appearing where it was originally written, there is no confusion as to whom the text is referring. But some sinister idea matured in the minds of some men, centuries ago, to remove the personal name of God and supplant it with "Adonai." What treachery! In most versions "Adonai" is written as "LORD," in upper-case letters. So now we have a confusing situation, partly because most people are too challenged in the thinking-ability department to notice just which "Lord" is all upper-case and which one is not. The problem is worsened when we get to the New Testament, because the copyists have not honored the "Adonai" that refers to Jehovah with all upper-case letters for "LORD," so we are left to our own devices to determine which "Lord" is being spoken of.

Not all of the "Lords" in the N.T. refer to Jesus, just as most of the "Lords" in the O.T. refer to YHWH.

This is no small problem. It is awesome that some Bible publishers now are putting God's name BACK into His own Book!


The Divine Name:
https://www.jw.org/en/publications/book ... -9225-0274

[tigger2]

[Replying to post 239 by Monta]

Jesus is Both Lord and Christ. And There is only One Lord Not Two or Three Lords.

So, what do you see the term "Lord" means when it may refer to the Father or to the Son?

The Lord is the Word therefore the essential good and truth.
The reason why the Lord is used in different situations is not because
there are various principles in the Lord, but because his divine is variously
received by man.
The Lord was God of the most ancient church and called Jehovah, the Ancient Church, Isrealitish Church and then Christian church.

It is very clear that Jehovah and Jesus are two different individuals, as has been brought out on this thread. Jesus is the Lord of human lords (or even spirit lords) because Jehovah says so. He has said that His Son must be honored as the King of His Kingdom, because His Son died on behalf of all of mankind who would accept it.

Jehovah is presented, in the original Hebrew texts of the Hebrew Scriptures, as the Most High God and is consistently identified by the use of His personal name, "YHWH." This appears 7,000 times throughout the Scriptures, if you look at the Hebrew text. With God's name appearing where it was originally written, there is no confusion as to whom the text is referring. But some sinister idea matured in the minds of some men, centuries ago, to remove the personal name of God and supplant it with "Adonai." What treachery! In most versions "Adonai" is written as "LORD," in upper-case letters. So now we have a confusing situation, partly because most people are too challenged in the thinking-ability department to notice just which "Lord" is all upper-case and which one is not. The problem is worsened when we get to the New Testament, because the copyists have not honored the "Adonai" that refers to Jehovah with all upper-case letters for "LORD," so we are left to our own devices to determine which "Lord" is being spoken of.

Not all of the "Lords" in the N.T. refer to Jesus, just as most of the "Lords" in the O.T. refer to YHWH.

This is no small problem. It is awesome that some Bible publishers now are putting God's name BACK into His own Book!


The Divine Name:
https://www.jw.org/en/publications/book ... -9225-0274

Isn't it odd how the KJV has actually rendered YHWH in the Hebrew text as "Jehovah" in a very few places (most notably in Ps. 83:18), and then renders the thousands of other uses of YHWH as "LORD" (all capital letters)? Those of us who understand this terrible mistranslation ("LORD") as really being "Jehovah" also are able to pronounce "Jehovah" every time we see it in the KJV. After all, this is the actual pronunciation the KJV itself has given us for YHWH in Ps. 83:18.

But how many know that the KJV also uses "LORD" to mean "Jehovah" a few times in the NT (Matt. 22:44; Mark 12:36; Luke 20:42; Acts 2:34)? All the other places where the only personal name of God is understood in the NT in the KJV are rendered as "Lord" making it more difficult to know whether God should be understood or some other "Lord."

[liamconnor]

this thread is now on page 25, and still the debate revolves around English words and English translations.

Either one knows how to read the MTT and the Greek manuscripts or one doesn't. If one does not, then one should not debate this topic.

[liamconnor]

I propose this thread has gone on too long and lacks the relevant parameters. I have started another thread where linguistics plays a more important role.
\

The chief difference is that names cannot be used without clear reference to an ancient text. Jehovah is a latin derivation. You won't find a Hebrew term that sounds like the English sounds J.H.O.V.A.H.

So the thread requires we drop that name.

Anyhow. Anyone who actually cares about linguistics can jump over there.

[JehovahsWitness]

You won't find a Hebrew term that sounds like the English sounds J.H.O.V.A.H.

You won't find a Hebrew term that sounds like the English sounds J.E.S.U.S either... so what?!

The point is that, however the originals were pronounced they are not referring to the same person nor should the tetregrammaton have been removed from scripture by the translators and replaced with alternative worlds that do not carry the same meaning.

[paarsurrey1]

Jesus prayed to YHWH, the Father, not to himself. (E.g., Matthew 26:39,42; John 11:41,42; John 17:1-26.) Would he have been praying to himself?

He continually referred to himself as "God's SON," not YHWH Himself. (John 5:19; John 8:28,29; John 10:36; John 17:1.) Even the Jews who hated him recognized that fact (John 19:7). Can he be his own Son?

He applied Isaiah 61:1,2 to himself, at Luke 4:17-21, showing that he was the one anointed BY YHWH, and sent BY YHWH. There are incontrovertibly two Persons mentioned in the passage, and YHWH is the One calling the shots. The anointed one does what YHWH wants. How could they be the same Person?

Psalm 110 is also applied to Jesus at Acts 2:34,35. He is the "Lord," or Messiah, that YHWH speaks to. Was YHWH talking to Himself?


I think that just these few points would show plainly that Jesus is not YHWH. Can anyone explain how THESE REFERENCES, ABOVE, can possibly agree with the premise that Jesus is YHWH? I'm not asking for other Scriptures to be brought in without commenting ON the verses I am asking about. Please give me your reasoning concerning these particular Scriptures. Thank you.

Jesus prayed to YHWH, the Father, not to himself. (E.g., Matthew 26:39,42; John 11:41,42; John 17:1-26.) Would he have been praying to himself?

Jesus was a human being so he had to pray for his difficulties, in trials and tribulations to One-True-God, whom in a metaphoric sense he used to address as "Father", obviously Jesus himself could not be his own father. YHVH was, therefore, a separate entity, undoubtedly. Right, please?
Regards

[paarsurrey1]

Jesus prayed to YHWH, the Father, not to himself. (E.g., Matthew 26:39,42; John 11:41,42; John 17:1-26.) Would he have been praying to himself?

He continually referred to himself as "God's SON," not YHWH Himself. (John 5:19; John 8:28,29; John 10:36; John 17:1.) Even the Jews who hated him recognized that fact (John 19:7). Can he be his own Son?

He applied Isaiah 61:1,2 to himself, at Luke 4:17-21, showing that he was the one anointed BY YHWH, and sent BY YHWH. There are incontrovertibly two Persons mentioned in the passage, and YHWH is the One calling the shots. The anointed one does what YHWH wants. How could they be the same Person?

Psalm 110 is also applied to Jesus at Acts 2:34,35. He is the "Lord," or Messiah, that YHWH speaks to. Was YHWH talking to Himself?


I think that just these few points would show plainly that Jesus is not YHWH. Can anyone explain how THESE REFERENCES, ABOVE, can possibly agree with the premise that Jesus is YHWH? I'm not asking for other Scriptures to be brought in without commenting ON the verses I am asking about. Please give me your reasoning concerning these particular Scriptures. Thank you.

showing that he was the one anointed BY YHWH, and sent BY YHWH

Jesus, as such, sure was a human being and was a messenger/prophet of YHVH, please.
Regards

[onewithhim]

this thread is now on page 25, and still the debate revolves around English words and English translations.

Either one knows how to read the MTT and the Greek manuscripts or one doesn't. If one does not, then one should not debate this topic.

It's only on page 25 because some people aren't getting the understanding of what has been posted about the Divine Name concerning its appearance in the Hebrew language (which is easily identified and recognized) and that it has been REMOVED from many modern versions of the Bible. Those of us who understand that have to keep telling the people about it so that, hopefully, they'll understand what has happened in the various Bible versions, and thus allay their confusion about which "Lord" is being referred to in the original Hebrew and Greek. We don't need to understand Hebrew and Greek to be able to see the truth about God's name, and, thus, who He is and what His relationship is to His Son.