Condemning the Right to Die

[KenRU]

Many denominations of Christianity condemn the right to die when terminally ill. I've often wondered why anyone who holds that position could condone the suffering that results, and how that position could possibly ever be seen as a good/moral/right position to hold.

To illustrate my point and for the purposes of debate, assume the following:

The patient is terminally ill.

The patient is in pain.

The patient is of sound mind.

The patient no longer wishes to suffer, and wishes to end his/her own life.

For the sake of clarity, please use the standard and common definition for all words.


Does it just boil down to, Thou Shall Not Kill? End of conversation?

How does one justify the suffering a terminally ill patient will endure - perhaps even for years - when denying that right? It never made sense to me.



For debate:
If you are opposed to the Right To Die, please make your argument:

1) Why this is the right/good position to hold.
2) Why this position shouldn't be seen as callous, cruel and/or selfish.
3) Why it should be the law of the land.
4) Why the opposing side is wrong.

If you support the Right To Die, please make your argument:

1) Why this is the right/good position to hold.
2) Why this position shouldn't be seen as murder and just plain wrong.
3) Why it should be the law of the land.
4) Why the other side is wrong.

[KenRU]

[Replying to post 89 by KenRU]

Very few posts so far willing to decry the right to end one's life.

Seeking strength in numbers is the last refuge pf the desperate.

Lol. I was seeking opposing points of view. Not ones that agree with me. That was my point.

After all, in order to keep the thread going, I will need dissenting points of view, won't I?

Or is the truth unimportant to you and you just prefer taking baseless cheap shots?


-all the best

[Jagella]

[Replying to post 88 by KenRU]

Oh, you do admit they exist. Above you asserted the stories are made up. Im confused.

Yes, almost all the stories that the euthanasia enthusiasts refer to that I'm aware of are made up by them. And yes, people who are suffering sometimes lose the will to live. What's confusing about that?

With all due respect, that is a ridiculous assertion. Surely you recognize that many people face AIDS, MS and various forms of cancer

Yes. I've known many of them, and as far as I know, they all want to live.

Death from cancer can be very painful, and the only recourse for many who are terminal is excessive morphine and to live in a semi-conscious state.

I knew an elderly woman who died that way. She hung on bravely. I met with her when she was dying, and we had a nice time working on a jigsaw puzzle. She seemed to be in good spirits despite her pain (she was taking morphine at the time but was quite conscious and alert).

Again, I've got real-life cases, and you euthanasia enthusiasts make things up.

In my OP, these options have already been explored.

Yes, another scenario from dream land.

Have you ever met someone in hospice before?

No. Have you? Do you have one real-life example?

You think every last one of them (those who have lost bowel control and are forced to live in diapers, or who have Alzheimers and half the time no longer remember spouses or children), shares your opinion?

Again, I can post a real-life example--my dear, old Dad. He had dementia and was incontinent with both bladder and bowel. He was very confused and forgetful and had to be placed in a nursing home. My siblings and I made a point of visiting him at the home. We brought him candy and other nice things to keep him content. He died in a fair amount of comfort. I think the difference for him was the care, attention, and love we showed him. I'd hate to think of what would have happened to him if we gave up on him wanting him to die!

Why shouldnt it be their choice?

Suffering people should have the right to refuse medical treatment if that's what you mean by "choice." I think it's likely though that this "right to die" stuff can quickly get out of hand. It does not have a good track record. Why believe that it somehow will be a good thing now?

And if that isnt an option? If the quality cannot be improved?

We need to keep trying to improve people's lives. Giving up may carry the cost of much suffering because we were too lazy or selfish to try our best to help people.

If you are asking me if I would end the life of someone (presumably a family member) who is terminal and in pain? Yes, I would (assuming I was confident it was the only choice available).

How would you kill that person? Use a meat cleaver?

Do you deny that there are real world examples of people who are terminal and in severe pain, with no hope of relief?

Nobody really knows what hope a person may or may not have. In your hypothetical cases, are you a prophet of some sort who can see the future and that the suffering person has no hope at all?

I at no point said that a life should be terminated. Have you not grasped that point yet? After so many pages?

I've read what you have posted, but I don't believe you have true compassion. I'm suspicious that you are just trying to rid the world of people you don't value and calling it "compassion."

[JerryMyers]

Yes, almost all the stories that the euthanasia enthusiasts refer to that I'm aware of are made up by them. And yes, people who are suffering sometimes lose the will to live. What's confusing about that?

Yes. I've known many of them, and as far as I know, they all want to live.

I knew an elderly woman who died that way. She hung on bravely. I met with her when she was dying, and we had a nice time working on a jigsaw puzzle. She seemed to be in good spirits despite her pain (she was taking morphine at the time but was quite conscious and alert).

Again, I've got real-life cases, and you euthanasia enthusiasts make things up.

Yes, another scenario from dream land.

No. Have you? Do you have one real-life example?

Again, I can post a real-life example--my dear, old Dad. He had dementia and was incontinent with both bladder and bowel. He was very confused and forgetful and had to be placed in a nursing home. My siblings and I made a point of visiting him at the home. We brought him candy and other nice things to keep him content. He died in a fair amount of comfort. I think the difference for him was the care, attention, and love we showed him. I'd hate to think of what would have happened to him if we gave up on him wanting him to die!

Suffering people should have the right to refuse medical treatment if that's what you mean by "choice." I think it's likely though that this "right to die" stuff can quickly get out of hand. It does not have a good track record. Why believe that it somehow will be a good thing now?

We need to keep trying to improve people's lives. Giving up may carry the cost of much suffering because we were too lazy or selfish to try our best to help people.

How would you kill that person? Use a meat cleaver?

Nobody really knows what hope a person may or may not have. In your hypothetical cases, are you a prophet of some sort who can see the future and that the suffering person has no hope at all?

I've read what you have posted, but I don't believe you have true compassion. I'm suspicious that you are just trying to rid the world of people you don't value and calling it "compassion."

Well, I have to agree with what Jagella said here. Just as we do not choose to be born, we too, do not have the right to choose to die or choose others right to die (or live).

From a humane perspective, it may seem non-compassionate to let someone who is terminally ill or in extreme pain or mentally-retarded to continue living just as it may seem non-compassionate of God to let someone born with physical defects or mentally-challenged too. However, thats the way God test our true faith in Him.

Sin is a choice we made, life and death is not a choice - its Gods Will whether we live or die.

[rikuoamero]

[Replying to post 92 by Jagella]

And yes, people who are suffering sometimes lose the will to live. What's confusing about that?

And if they lose the will to live, (or as other people might describe it, have a will to die), why not allow them?

I've left instructions to family and friends that if ever I end up paralyzed (we're talking Stephen Hawking level of paralyzed), to pull the plug so to speak. I do not want to spend the rest of my life like that.

Yes. I've known many of them, and as far as I know, they all want to live.

What about the ones who don't? Why assume that each and every person who is suffering from a terminal illness doesn't want death?

I knew an elderly woman who died that way. She hung on bravely. I met with her when she was dying, and we had a nice time working on a jigsaw puzzle. She seemed to be in good spirits despite her pain (she was taking morphine at the time but was quite conscious and alert).

Again, I've got real-life cases, and you euthanasia enthusiasts make things up.

How do you know that they're made up? How do we know that the old lady you talk about isn't herself made up? Why assume that all people on morphine and suffering from a terminal illness are conscious and alert like she was?

Yes, another scenario from dream land.

So your point is to argue that the OP's scenario quite simply does not and cannot occur in real life? I don't see how you can say this with a straight face, given that nothing there violates the laws of physics or anything.

No. Have you? Do you have one real-life example?

So you haven't met anyone in a hospice yet you are all too quick to assume there are no people, and there cannot be, who fit the OP's scenario, who may or may not be in a hospice.

Again, I can post a real-life example--my dear, old Dad. He had dementia and was incontinent with both bladder and bowel. He was very confused and forgetful and had to be placed in a nursing home. My siblings and I made a point of visiting him at the home. We brought him candy and other nice things to keep him content. He died in a fair amount of comfort.

Again, this is just one example from your own experience, and we have to take your word that it isn't made up. I've already left instructions that if ever I am in such a state, to pull the plug. I do not want to live in such a state.

Suffering people should have the right to refuse medical treatment if that's what you mean by "choice." I think it's likely though that this "right to die" stuff can quickly get out of hand. It does not have a good track record. Why believe that it somehow will be a good thing now?

I can share your worries, but this is being emotional.

We need to keep trying to improve people's lives. Giving up may carry the cost of much suffering because we were too lazy or selfish to try our best to help people.

http://www.mirror.co.uk/tv/tv-news/morn ... r-11025580

Have a watch/read of that. Like the woman in that article, I am allergic to nuts. There is a possibility that I could end up like her. If ever I did...I would not want to be like that.
It would not be a case of laziness or selfishness. It's a case of how I would want to live my life (or not want to). I do not want to live my life completely paralyzed like that woman is.

How would you kill that person? Use a meat cleaver?

Hyperbolic. Why exaggerate? In earlier threads, I (and presumably others) have opined on doing it painlessly.

Nobody really knows what hope a person may or may not have. In your hypothetical cases, are you a prophet of some sort who can see the future and that the suffering person has no hope at all?

Are you? The woman in the article I linked to above has no hope of treatment. She was brain dead for several minutes. There's no treatment for that. Literal portions of her brain matter is now dead, and unlike Christians, you and I don't believe in resurrection of dead tissue.

Your attitude here seems to be to force hope on someone who quite simply does not share your point of view. If they honestly tell you they want to die, and are quite earnest about it, why would you refuse them?

I've read what you have posted, but I don't believe you have true compassion. I'm suspicious that you are just trying to rid the world of people you don't value and calling it "compassion."

I could say the same about you, that you lack compassion. How about we not go down that route?

[rikuoamero]

[Replying to post 93 by JerryMyers]

Just as we do not choose to be born, we too, do not have the right to choose to die or choose others right to die (or live).

I don't know about choosing for other people, but what yourself? Why does the person not have autonomy over their own self?

From a humane perspective, it may seem non-compassionate to let someone who is terminally ill or in extreme pain or mentally-retarded to continue living just as it may seem non-compassionate of God to let someone born with physical defects or mentally-challenged too. However, thats the way God test our true faith in Him.

This argument can only ever work on someone who believes in the God that you do. I don't. So this argument would not sway me in the slightest, if ever I were to end up terminally ill and/or in extreme pain or mentally retarded.

Sin is a choice we made,

What is sin, and when did I make that choice? If you mean Adam and Eve and the forbidden fruit, then just to remind you of what you yourself said at the beginning of this response - we do not choose to be born.

If you respond to this question of mine, please be aware of the wording of my question. I asked "when did I make that choice". I do not want an answer that pertains to humanity in general or some other individual people that are not me.

life and death is not a choice - its Gods Will whether we live or die.

Doesn't the Christian God value free will? I hear that all the time from Christians. So please describe to me what is happening in the situation where a terminally ill patient, in extreme pain, convinces a family member to pull the plug on their life support (and doctors allow it). If, as you say, we do not have a choice, does God step in and prevent life support from being pulled through some Godly divine miracle? What about executions of criminals? They happen (although infrequently). It's humans who carry them out.
How do we differentiate between the model of reality where humans end the lives of other humans with no God stepping in, and the model of reality where humans end the lives of other humans with God subtly pulling our strings as if we were puppets?

[KenRU]

[Replying to post 88 by KenRU]

Oh, you do admit they exist. Above you asserted the stories are made up. Im confused.

Yes, almost all the stories that the euthanasia enthusiasts refer to that I'm aware of are made up by them.

Source or evidence to back up this claim please.

And yes, people who are suffering sometimes lose the will to live. What's confusing about that?

Either the stories of terminal patients in pain who lose the will live are true or they arent. Youve said both. That can be confusing.

With all due respect, that is a ridiculous assertion. Surely you recognize that many people face AIDS, MS and various forms of cancer

Yes. I've known many of them, and as far as I know, they all want to live.

Im glad youve admitted that its as far as you know. I have known someone who fits my criteria. I provided you with a website where they have advocates for just this scenario.

But, all of these examples are lies, right?

Death from cancer can be very painful, and the only recourse for many who are terminal is excessive morphine and to live in a semi-conscious state.

I knew an elderly woman who died that way. She hung on bravely. I met with her when she was dying, and we had a nice time working on a jigsaw puzzle. She seemed to be in good spirits despite her pain (she was taking morphine at the time but was quite conscious and alert).

Again, I've got real-life cases, and you euthanasia enthusiasts make things up.

False. I had a family member who fit these criteria. Perhaps it would be in your best interest to stop assuming facts, and actually ask " and learn?

Oh, and for what its worth, I reject your label of euthanasia enthusiast. I am not enthusiastic about euthanasia.

Otherwise, perhaps it is just as fair then to label you a sufferer enthusiast? Or, a pain monger?

Only fair, right?

In my OP, these options have already been explored.

Yes, another scenario from dream land.

If you reject the premise, why are you here? No reason to be. Move along. You can continue to live in denial elsewhere.

Have you ever met someone in hospice before?

No. Have you?

Yes, multiple people. To use your own words, I have real world experiences, and you have what???? Denial, apparently.

Do you have one real-life example?

I do. I had a great aunt who lived in hospice for quite a while. It is not easy to know that you are dying, and that there is no treatment for you. Not all hospice patients are in great pain, but unlike you, I wouldnt want to even pretend to know what someone is going through when confronted with an impending death, let alone someone in great pain as well.

I have had family members who lived in hospice and who have been in a situation where they wanted to end their life due to suffering.

Perhaps it would be wise of you to stop pretending that these situations dont exist.

You think every last one of them (those who have lost bowel control and are forced to live in diapers, or who have Alzheimers and half the time no longer remember spouses or children), shares your opinion?

Again, I can post a real-life example--my dear, old Dad. He had dementia and was incontinent with both bladder and bowel. He was very confused and forgetful and had to be placed in a nursing home. My siblings and I made a point of visiting him at the home. We brought him candy and other nice things to keep him content. He died in a fair amount of comfort. I think the difference for him was the care, attention, and love we showed him.

Im very glad to hear that you and your family were able to give your father the love and dignity he deserved. Unfortunately, not everyone gets to end their life in such a manner.

I'd hate to think of what would have happened to him if we gave up on him wanting him to die!

Who said anything about giving up or wanting someone to die?

Please stop foisting your bias on my position. It just shows everyone here how you do not understand the argument before you.

Why shouldnt it be their choice?

Suffering people should have the right to refuse medical treatment if that's what you mean by "choice." I think it's likely though that this "right to die" stuff can quickly get out of hand.

So, because you have a fear of what may get out of hand, you therefore would deny a terminal and in pain patient the right to end their suffering. I dont see the compassion here.

It does not have a good track record.

Is this another baseless assertion? Please cite your source or evidence.

Why believe that it somehow will be a good thing now?

Once again, who said anything about this being a good thing? I assert that it should be the patients choice. They should determine if their life (once diagnosed as terminal and in pain) is worth living. Not you or I

And if that isnt an option? If the quality cannot be improved?

We need to keep trying to improve people's lives. Giving up may carry the cost of much suffering because we were too lazy or selfish to try our best to help people.

Well, you are already on record as saying the scenario in the OP is one from dreamland, so, reminding you that for many people there is no better option would be pointless.

If you are asking me if I would end the life of someone (presumably a family member) who is terminal and in pain? Yes, I would (assuming I was confident it was the only choice available).

How would you kill that person? Use a meat cleaver?

I would bore them to death with your constant denials of reality.

Do you deny that there are real world examples of people who are terminal and in severe pain, with no hope of relief?

Nobody really knows what hope a person may or may not have.

Well, this brings us right back to the OP. We could LISTEN to them when they tell us.

In your hypothetical cases, are you a prophet of some sort who can see the future and that the suffering person has no hope at all?

No, no prophet. I just am willing to listen to the medical professionals, and the patients wishes. Unlike you, apparently.

I at no point said that a life should be terminated. Have you not grasped that point yet? After so many pages?

I've read what you have posted, but I don't believe you have true compassion.

That wasnt the question before you, but so far, answering actual questions put forth to you has not been your strong suit.

I'm suspicious that you are just trying to rid the world of people you don't value and calling it "compassion."

Im suspicious that you are a masochist and wish to bring as much pain into the world as possible, and enjoy foisting your morals upon other people.

Now that we have both falsely accused the other of positions neither of us actually hold, now what?

I suggest that you either move along, or accept the conditions of the OP.

[KenRU]

Yes, almost all the stories that the euthanasia enthusiasts refer to that I'm aware of are made up by them. And yes, people who are suffering sometimes lose the will to live. What's confusing about that?

Yes. I've known many of them, and as far as I know, they all want to live.

I knew an elderly woman who died that way. She hung on bravely. I met with her when she was dying, and we had a nice time working on a jigsaw puzzle. She seemed to be in good spirits despite her pain (she was taking morphine at the time but was quite conscious and alert).

Again, I've got real-life cases, and you euthanasia enthusiasts make things up.

Yes, another scenario from dream land.

No. Have you? Do you have one real-life example?

Again, I can post a real-life example--my dear, old Dad. He had dementia and was incontinent with both bladder and bowel. He was very confused and forgetful and had to be placed in a nursing home. My siblings and I made a point of visiting him at the home. We brought him candy and other nice things to keep him content. He died in a fair amount of comfort. I think the difference for him was the care, attention, and love we showed him. I'd hate to think of what would have happened to him if we gave up on him wanting him to die!

Suffering people should have the right to refuse medical treatment if that's what you mean by "choice." I think it's likely though that this "right to die" stuff can quickly get out of hand. It does not have a good track record. Why believe that it somehow will be a good thing now?

We need to keep trying to improve people's lives. Giving up may carry the cost of much suffering because we were too lazy or selfish to try our best to help people.

How would you kill that person? Use a meat cleaver?

Nobody really knows what hope a person may or may not have. In your hypothetical cases, are you a prophet of some sort who can see the future and that the suffering person has no hope at all?

I've read what you have posted, but I don't believe you have true compassion. I'm suspicious that you are just trying to rid the world of people you don't value and calling it "compassion."

Well, I have to agree with what Jagella said here. Just as we do not choose to be born, we too, do not have the right to choose to die or choose others right to die (or live).

Why do we not have that choice or right?

From a humane perspective, it may seem non-compassionate to let someone who is terminally ill or in extreme pain or mentally-retarded to continue living just as it may seem non-compassionate of God to let someone born with physical defects or mentally-challenged too. However, thats the way God test our true faith in Him.

How is this not a selfish position to hold (for god)? God wishes to let someone suffer to just test their faith? This act seems the very definition of selfish and cruel to me.

Sin is a choice we made, life and death is not a choice - its Gods Will whether we live or die.

And if someone doesn't share your religious belief on this subject? Who should then chose?

-all the best

[JerryMyers]

What is sin, and when did I make that choice? If you mean Adam and Eve and the forbidden fruit, then just to remind you of what you yourself said at the beginning of this response - we do not choose to be born.

If you respond to this question of mine, please be aware of the wording of my question. I asked "when did I make that choice". I do not want an answer that pertains to humanity in general or some other individual people that are not me.

The question you asked (What is sin and when did I make that choice) is really irrelevant to you because sin is related to Gods Laws and you dont believe in a God. So, the word sin should not even be in your vocabulary.

This argument can only ever work on someone who believes in the God that you do. I don't. So this argument would not sway me in the slightest, if ever I were to end up terminally ill and/or in extreme pain or mentally retarded.

True. And thats why its best for both of us not to debate on this subject as my points can only be understood (or misunderstood) by someone who believe in God (irrespective of which faith) and your points can only be understood by someone who do not believe in God. We will be wasting each other time if we continue to pursue on this subject.

[JerryMyers]

Why do we not have that choice or right?

Do you believe in God ? If you dont, then, nothing I said will convince you.

Do you believe in God ?

[rikuoamero]

[Replying to post 98 by JerryMyers]

The question you asked (What is sin and when did I make that choice) is really irrelevant to you because sin is related to Gods Laws and you dont believe in a God. So, the word sin should not even be in your vocabulary.

I don't agree about it not being in my vocab - I don't believe in Zeus, but I still recognise the word, still have a meaning for the word Zeus in my mind.
So, then this concept of sin that you yourself have, that 'we' all made a choice - that doesn't apply to me because I say I'm not a believer in it?
Okay cool. So non-believers in your God did not make a choice regarding sin. Is that a statement you can agree with?

True. And thats why its best for both of us not to debate on this subject as my points can only be understood (or misunderstood) by someone who believe in God (irrespective of which faith) and your points can only be understood by someone who do not believe in God. We will be wasting each other time if we continue to pursue on this subject.

The OP, while mentioning Christianity at first, has questions that are open to everybody, regardless of belief.
Also, I can make points on subjects that even people of religious belief can agree with. For example, I can say "Theft is wrong because it deprives a person of their belongings": both religious and non-religious people could agree with that.