The kingdom of God.

[Checkpoint]

Some seem to think it is entirely future, while others give the impression they are always thinking of it as present, and to not be looking at the future in kingdom terms at all.

Jesus had much to say about the kingdom, including this:

Luke 16:

6 The Law and the Prophets were until John; since then the good news of the kingdom of God is preached, and everyone is being zealously urged into it.

So, where do you stand as to whether it is present, future, or has both a present and a future aspect?

On what basis?

According to which scriptures?

[Checkpoint]

[Replying to post 121 by Checkpoint]

Is there a difference between the Kingdom (we pray for) and "the government" that is on Christ's shoulders? (see Isaiah 9:6). If "yes" can you explain the difference?

Has the "government" been in existence and on Jesus' shoulders since the beginning of time?

It has been "on his shoulders" from the time God put it there.

Not "since the beginning of time" but when God chose to make him King Jesus.

[ttruscott]

Jesus had much to say about the kingdom, including this:

Luke 16: 6 The Law and the Prophets were until John; since then the good news of the kingdom of God is preached, and everyone is being zealously urged into it.

He also said the Luke 17:21 Nor will people say, 'Look, here it is,' or 'There it is.' For you see, the kingdom of God is in your midst/within you."

entos: within, among
Original Word: �ντός
Part of Speech: Adverb
Transliteration: entos
Phonetic Spelling: (en-tos')
Short Definition: within, inside, the inside
Definition: within, inside, the inside.

If it is within each of HIS people it would also be amongst any gathering of HIS people...the word works both ways.

In this case, people of the kingdom, HIS family, HIS church and HIS Bride all speak of the same group and might have nothing to do with government, which might be merely a type for the heavenly experience written in earthly terms...

[2timothy316]

Jesus had much to say about the kingdom, including this:

Luke 16: 6 The Law and the Prophets were until John; since then the good news of the kingdom of God is preached, and everyone is being zealously urged into it.

He also said the Luke 17:21 Nor will people say, 'Look, here it is,' or 'There it is.' For you see, the kingdom of God is in your midst/within you."

entos: within, among
Original Word: �ντός
Part of Speech: Adverb
Transliteration: entos
Phonetic Spelling: (en-tos')
Short Definition: within, inside, the inside
Definition: within, inside, the inside.

If it is within each of HIS people it would also be amongst any gathering of HIS people...the word works both ways.

In this case, people of the kingdom, HIS family, HIS church and HIS Bride all speak of the same group and might have nothing to do with government, which might be merely a type for the heavenly experience written in earthly terms...

Another translation for entos is 'among'.
http://biblehub.com/greek/1787.htm

It doesn't stop there either in verse 21. Read on and you will see why people will not notice the Kingdom (government) of God.

So the Kingdom (government) is among us today but many will not be able to see it. Jesus also told his disciples "The time will come during which you will long to see one of these days when the Son of Man is with you, but you will not see it." verse 22. This is without a doubt a nod to the understanding that there is a real government but not an Earthly government. It's a government that can only been see through the eye of faith. If the kingdom was actually in a person's heart...who can long to see their heart but can't see it? The 'kingdom in the heart' doctrine makes no sense in this case.

[onewithhim]

[Replying to post 126 by onewithhim]

1) Why pray for the Kingdom to come?

Because that was what Jesus both taught and exampled.

Because it refers to the one kingdom, whether present or future.

God chooses to answer by confirming the prayer, or command under His authority, by effecting appropriate action.

God has His royal family; believers are His children.

He is both their Father and their King, and thus they are sons of the kingdom [Matthew 13:38].

The kingdom does not come only once, and the kingdom is not something only in the future.

That once only and future only concept was the very one that Jesus encountered from his fellow Jews.

Luke 17:

20 Being asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, he answered them, “The kingdom of God is not coming in ways that can be observed,
21 nor will they say, ‘Look, here it is!’ or ‘There!’ for behold, the kingdom of God is in the midst of you.�

So, what is he conveying here?

I suggest he is comparing outward things with inward, as he does elsewhere at times.
That in this life we walk by faith, not by sight.

The Greek word translated as "in your midst" is translated "inside" in the following passage:

Matthew 23:

25 Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you clean the outside of the cup and the plate, but inside they are full of greed and self-indulgence.
26 You blind Pharisee! First clean the inside of the cup and the plate, that the outside also may be clean.

Jesus examples the kingdom coming in this present age, not once but time after time, here:

Matthew 12:

22 Then a demon-oppressed man who was blind and mute was brought to him, and he healed him, so that the man spoke and saw.
23 And all the people were amazed, and said, “Can this be the Son of David?�

24 But when the Pharisees heard it, they said, “It is only by Beelzebul, the prince of demons, that this man casts out demons.�
25 Knowing their thoughts, he said to them, “Every kingdom divided against itself is laid waste, and no city or house divided against itself will stand.
26 And if Satan casts out Satan, he is divided against himself. How then will his kingdom stand?
27 And if I cast out demons by Beelzebul, by whom do your sons cast them out? Therefore they will be your judges.

28 But if it is by the Spirit of God that I cast out demons, then the kingdom of God has come upon you.

I disagree, but I thank you for answering anyway. I don't know why, if the kingdom was already here, that Jesus said to pray for it to come. I haven't seen a good answer for that yet.

What Jesus said to the Pharisees at Luke 17 was to let them know that the kingdom that he would be heading up would not be a visible kingdom on Earth, but it would be invisible to humans because it would be stationed in heaven. He also brought to their attention that HE, as the designated future King, was there in their midst. Really, he wouldn't have been telling the Pharisees that the righteous Kingdom was within them, because they were exposed by him as being hypocrites and fit for Gehenna.

[onewithhim]

Jesus had much to say about the kingdom, including this:

Luke 16: 6 The Law and the Prophets were until John; since then the good news of the kingdom of God is preached, and everyone is being zealously urged into it.

He also said the Luke 17:21 Nor will people say, 'Look, here it is,' or 'There it is.' For you see, the kingdom of God is in your midst/within you."

entos: within, among
Original Word: �ντός
Part of Speech: Adverb
Transliteration: entos
Phonetic Spelling: (en-tos')
Short Definition: within, inside, the inside
Definition: within, inside, the inside.

If it is within each of HIS people it would also be amongst any gathering of HIS people...the word works both ways.

In this case, people of the kingdom, HIS family, HIS church and HIS Bride all speak of the same group and might have nothing to do with government, which might be merely a type for the heavenly experience written in earthly terms...

Another translation for entos is 'among'.
http://biblehub.com/greek/1787.htm

It doesn't stop there either in verse 21. Read on and you will see why people will not notice the Kingdom (government) of God.

So the Kingdom (government) is among us today but many will not be able to see it. Jesus also told his disciples "The time will come during which you will long to see one of these days when the Son of Man is with you, but you will not see it." verse 22. This is without a doubt a nod to the understanding that there is a real government but not an Earthly government. It's a government that can only been see through the eye of faith. If the kingdom was actually in a person's heart...who can long to see their heart but can't see it? The 'kingdom in the heart' doctrine makes no sense in this case.

It doesn't make sense in ANY case, when you look at Isaiah 9:6,7 and Daniel 2:44.

[JehovahsWitness]

So God's Kingdom (which can be defined as "God's actions and choices"), for which Jesus taught his followers to pray, started ruling at some point in the past and will extend it's rule into the future. I think I understand what you are saying now.

That's progress!

But if so, does that mean you agree with what I am saying to you?

If not, why not and where not?

I cannot say if I agree with you because you use so much "religious speak" and nubulous expressions that I find it hard to pin down what you are actually saying. I've gleaned you believe the Kingdom is somewhere between a feeling in one's heart and God doing ...er... "something" some time in the past and future (and present) ... What I wrote above (in quotes) were mostly not your words but my own, extracted like stubborn wisdom teeth over a number of posts and translated into plain English.

If I were inclined to push more (which I am not) I daresay you will tell me that "...the kingdom is everything and nothing , everywhere and nowhere, here now future and past, on earth in heaven and yet in none on those places, beyond time and space coming and going yet arrived and on its way, indefinable with human words but clear and easy as the rule of three to the angels ... "

Religious speak makes me want to rip my own eyes out and throw them at my computer screen.

No offense,



JW


root canal work
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 054#885054

[2timothy316]

If I were inclined to push more (which I am not) I daresay you will tell me that "...the kingdom is everything and nothing , everywhere and nowhere, here now future and past, on earth in heaven and yet in none on those places, beyond time and space coming and going yet arrived and on its way, indefinable with human words but clear and easy as the rule of three to the angels ... "

Yes, I see this type of speak all the time. I call it 'grey speech'. Grey is a neutral color, thus why I call it 'grey speech'. It's an attempt by the person to enter into a neutral area of belief without having to commit to a definite 'yes or no' answer. It's basically a nice way of a person to let another know, 'I hear what you are saying and it makes sense but I'm not going change my mind'.

Another term I use is 'smoke-bomb speech', where the debater tries to push their argument through like a ninja in a cloud by answering both yes and no to a question that should only have one answer. Hoping to escape the debate conclusion in the smoky confusion. When it doesn't work, then the debater tries to convince the other that the question can have a 'yes/no' answer, that confusion is the answer.

The simplest answer is the Kingdom of God is not made real by hearts but we can give our hearts to the kingdom. The kingdom would exist with or without humans. To say that the kingdom is in our hearts means that the kingdom is finite and even corruptible. “The heart is more treacherous than anything else and is desperate,� states the Bible. (Jer. 17:9) Yet 1 Peter 1:2, 3 says, "Praised be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, for according to his great mercy he gave us a new birth to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, to an incorruptible and undefiled and unfading inheritance."

That 'inheritance' is the Kingdom of God not our hearts.

[Checkpoint]

[quote="[url=http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 388#885388]

So God's Kingdom (which can be defined as "God's actions and choices"), for which Jesus taught his followers to pray, started ruling at some point in the past and will extend it's rule into the future. I think I understand what you are saying now.

Checkpoint wrote:

That's progress!

But if so, does that mean you agree with what I am saying to you?

If not, why not and where not?

I cannot say if I agree with you because you use so much "religious speak" and nubulous expressions that I find it hard to pin down what you are actually saying. I've gleaned you believe the Kingdom is somewhere between a feeling in one's heart and God doing ...er... "something" some time in the past and future (and present) ... What I wrote above (in quotes) were mostly not your words but my own, extracted like stubborn wisdom teeth over a number of posts and translated into plain English.

If I were inclined to push more (which I am not) I daresay you will tell me that "...the kingdom is everything and nothing , everywhere and nowhere, here now future and past, on earth in heaven and yet in none on those places, beyond time and space coming and going yet arrived and on its way, indefinable with human words but clear and easy as the rule of three to the angels ..."

Ha ha ha!

I am not laughing at you but your summary and description was so colorful and said so much about both of us.

I guess your questions did "push" me into using ways of answering that did appear to muddy the waters for some readers.

Especially anyone who insists the kingdom has one dimension only, a future one that...

That has to fit into what some folk insist are certain truths as to how it governs, where it governs from, who does the governing, and when that governing started.

Religious speak makes me want to rip my own eyes out and throw them at my computer screen.

A reminder of what Jesus recommended we do in different circumstances.

But anyway, do take care.

No offense

It's ok, none at all taken.



root canal work
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 054#885054[/quote]

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 137 by 2timothy316]

I don't know if people are being evasive, I think its more that is the way they have been taught; meaningless expressionss are the mainstay of religions that have no real answers and it all comes to a head with the kingdom because for them its the great unknown; simply put, they don't know what God's kingdom is! I don't think its a "ploy" (well for some it is, but for most not), its just when they asked their pastors "What is God's Kingdom?" they were told "Blah blah blah blah - doesn't mean anything - blah blah blah blah .. Go in peace my son and for pity's sake don't ask me any more questions"

For those that make an effort to read the bible it often comes down to not knowing the difference between Jehovah's Sovereignty and the Messianic kingdom, so they end up trying to encompass every scripture they have ever read with the word king or ruler in it together thus the ... "It has always been, is now, will be in the future, is in heaven but on earth and everwhere, everyone is in it, nobody is in it it stared in the past but it will start in the future , it is coming, arrived, yet promised, yet past yet future, yet now... etc"

It would be funny if it weren't so important.



JW

[onewithhim]

[quote="[url=http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 388#885388]

So God's Kingdom (which can be defined as "God's actions and choices"), for which Jesus taught his followers to pray, started ruling at some point in the past and will extend it's rule into the future. I think I understand what you are saying now.

Checkpoint wrote:

That's progress!

But if so, does that mean you agree with what I am saying to you?

If not, why not and where not?

I cannot say if I agree with you because you use so much "religious speak" and nubulous expressions that I find it hard to pin down what you are actually saying. I've gleaned you believe the Kingdom is somewhere between a feeling in one's heart and God doing ...er... "something" some time in the past and future (and present) ... What I wrote above (in quotes) were mostly not your words but my own, extracted like stubborn wisdom teeth over a number of posts and translated into plain English.

If I were inclined to push more (which I am not) I daresay you will tell me that "...the kingdom is everything and nothing , everywhere and nowhere, here now future and past, on earth in heaven and yet in none on those places, beyond time and space coming and going yet arrived and on its way, indefinable with human words but clear and easy as the rule of three to the angels ..."

Ha ha ha!

I am not laughing at you but your summary and description was so colorful and said so much about both of us.

I guess your questions did "push" me into using ways of answering that did appear to muddy the waters for some readers.

Especially anyone who insists the kingdom has one dimension only, a future one that...

That has to fit into what some folk insist are certain truths as to how it governs, where it governs from, who does the governing, and when that governing started.

Religious speak makes me want to rip my own eyes out and throw them at my computer screen.

A reminder of what Jesus recommended we do in different circumstances.

But anyway, do take care.

No offense

It's ok, none at all taken.



root canal work
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 054#885054

[/quote]
Forgive me if we have gone over this before, but I don't recall. Would you please tell me what the following scriptures mean if the kingdom has already been ruling since time began and is mostly to be felt in out hearts?

Isaiah 9:6,7
Daniel 2:44