Example of Creation or Design

[rikuoamero]

In the 'Ask a Group' subforum, the following question was posed to creationists and/or intelligent design advocates.

Creationists and proponents of Intelligent Design are often critical of the theory of evolution. But their criticism leaves their opponents with the feeling that they don't actually understand evolution.

Question for Creationists and proponents of Intelligent Design: can you explain what is meant by evolution?

User 2timothy316 has gotten into a discussion with me, and in one of his most recent responses to me, where he opined

Because creation/intelligent can be observed

I asked for an example

Where? When? Can you show me a creature being designed (not by humans) and show me the designer?

So the topic for discussion here is for 2timothy316 (or anyone really) to give examples of what they think is creation/intelligent design (not by humans, since what's the point of looking at examples from humans?) of lifeforms, and of the designer/creator.

[2timothy316]

[Replying to post 1 by rikuoamero]

Design is that which displays intelligence, forethought and purpose. For example a key and a lock. A lock is only a lock if its working component receive a key, a key has no purpose without the lock; neither could have "evolved" independently because to fulfill their purpose they need each other. As inanimate objects they couldn't reflect a future purpose and move towards conforming to that projected future.

I like to look at the reverse of the definition you just gave.

Non-designed would be something which displays, no intelligence, forethought and no purpose. When we think about it that way...what doesn't have a purpose of some sort in our universe?

Even rocks serve a purpose....We'd have no planet to stand on if we didn't have them.

[rikuoamero]

[Replying to post 9 by 2timothy316]

Birds show intelligence that they have to mate to make an another bird. Really all birds do. I have never heard of a species that just kept different body parts into other body parts and accidentally make another bird. Instinct is a type of intelligence.

So you are saying that birds consciously, wilfully, designed the egg? Did they design the various parts of the egg, the yolk, the shell, did they direct, consciously, with full knowledge of what they were doing, the various components (even down to the elemental level) of the egg to do this that and the other, until they had an egg?

[rikuoamero]

[Replying to post 1 by rikuoamero]

Design is that which displays intelligence, forethought and purpose. For example a key and a lock. A lock is only a lock if its working component receive a key, a key has no purpose without the lock; neither could have "evolved" independently because to fulfill their purpose they need each other. As inanimate objects they couldn't reflect a future purpose and move towards conforming to that projected future.

I like to look at the reverse of the definition you just gave.

Non-designed would be something which displays, no intelligence, forethought and no purpose. When we think about it that way...what doesn't have a purpose of some sort in our universe?

Even rocks serve a purpose....We'd have no planet to stand on if we didn't have them.

So now you're arguing that the hole was deliberately shaped for the puddle of water.

Yes, the Earth has a purpose (a, not the) for us, because that is what we give it. However, how do we know that it is THE purpose, that it had a designer, and that the designer had US in mind?

[rikuoamero]

[Replying to post 10 by JehovahsWitness]

This is why if we find a key and a lock we do not presume there was an explosion in a metal factory and then someone waited a long long (long) l o n g time and the key and lock "evolved".

That would be because keys and locks don't evolve. They're not life forms. So this is a strawman.

[rikuoamero]

So the topic for discussion here is for 2timothy316 (or anyone really) to give examples of what they think is creation/intelligent design (not by humans, since what's the point of looking at examples from humans?) of lifeforms, and of the designer/creator.

So let me get this straight. I can give any example of intelligent design as long as it is 'not by humans.'

Easy.

A bird's egg.

Yes, pretty much. Now...this bird's egg. How do you know it was designed? Who or what is the designer?

Birds show intelligence that they have to mate to make an another bird. Really all birds do. I have never heard of a species that just kept different body parts into other body parts and accidentally make another bird. Instinct is a type of intelligence.

Instinct: "a largely inheritable and unalterable tendency of an organism to make a complex and specific response to environmental stimuli without involving reason."

Perhaps you can show an example of bird that didn't come from some form of intelligence? (Gotta keep asking you know.)

2Timothy, the definition for instinct you give actually defeats your own argument. Look at the last three words of it.
Without involving reason.

Now try and explain to me how there is design going on, with this thing or process called Instinct that does not involve reason?

[Inigo Montoya]

Moderator removed one-line (ok it wasn't just one line,) non-contributing post. Kindly refrain from making posts that contribute nothing to debate and/or simply express agreement / disagreement or make other frivolous remarks.

For complimenting or agreeing use the "Like" function or the MGP button. For anything else use PM.

[Peter]

If a god designed humans they should be sued for malpractice.
I'm not aware of any examples of intelligent design.

[William]

[Replying to post 1 by rikuoamero]

So the topic for discussion here is for 2timothy316 (or anyone really) to give examples of what they think is creation/intelligent design (not by humans, since what's the point of looking at examples from humans?) of lifeforms, and of the designer/creator.

Everything is an example.

Personally, I do not think it is at all necessary to even discard humane invention/creativity as somehow NOT being an example.

Why wouldn't looking at examples of human creativity and design not be acceptable as evidence? I suggest that ultimately it is in the eye of the beholder, which is to say, up to personal interpretation as to whether intelligent design is involved in the process of evolution, or not.

I also think that those who prefer to interpret mindlessness as being responsible for life forms on the planet, are doing so primarily because they cannot stand the thought of the Abrahaic idea of GOD being the one who is responsible. As much as I understand the underlying emotional repulsion for the choice, I also understand that assuming there are only two choices (either the Abrahamic idea of GOD created everything OR it was all a completely mindless accident) is a needless distraction from other, better explanations.

[Neatras]

I also think that those who prefer to interpret mindlessness as being responsible for life forms on the planet, are doing so primarily because they cannot stand the thought of the Abrahaic idea of GOD being the one who is responsible.

Well, you think incorrectly. My acceptance of evolutionary theory, my understanding of the physical processes involved in chemistry, and my ability to recognize natural phenomenon all contribute to my skepticism towards claims of mindfulness in evolutionary processes. Your inability to provide any concrete process by which an intelligence shapes biological evolution further causes me to be skeptical of your fallacious and irrational claims.

The mythical abrahamic god is of no import when discussing biology. So stop trying to inject references where it doesn't belong, okay?

[William]

[Replying to post 19 by Neatras]

The mythical abrahamic god is of no import when discussing biology. So stop trying to inject references where it doesn't belong, okay?

No. Not 'okay'.

Your particular position is not the common reason evident in the activity of those who frequent this forum and argue with theists who specifically adhere to the Abrahamic idea of GOD.

Thus such injected references do 'belong' here as they are part and parcel of debating Christianity and religion.

Indeed that was the invitation in the OP, so if you don't think it 'okay' then why are you even making any comment in this thread?

So the topic for discussion is for anyone to give examples of what they think is creation/intelligent design of lifeforms, and of the designer/creator.

Me adding additional observation re why I also think that those who prefer to interpret mindlessness as being responsible for life forms on the planet, are doing so primarily because they cannot stand the thought of the Abrahaic idea of GOD being the one who is responsible, is not inclusive of everyone who is against the idea of mindful creation.

The mythical abrahamic god is of no import when discussing biology.

is the discussion about biology? Or are you in the wrong forum?