3-Point Calvinism

[McCulloch]

…as far as Calvinism goes I am 3-point (Total Depravity, Unconditional Election, and Perseverance of the Saints).

Can this be done consistently?
If humans are totally depraved then how can grace not be irresistible? Total depravity means that we cannot do anything good by our own will, if we have a choice between good and evil, we will choose evil. Therefore, if God wants us to do or choose good, He must compell us. Irresistible Grace.
If Jesus died for every sinner and salvation only comes by God's election, then all sinners should be saved. Therefore, if there are any not saved, then Jesus died only for the elect. Limited Atonement.

[2timothy316]

[Replying to post 1 by McCulloch]

It is due to the reasoning you've shown here that Calvinism is just not a viable foundation for faith in God.

"It is unthinkable that you [Jehovah] would act in this manner by putting the righteous man to death with the wicked one so that the outcome for the righteous man and the wicked is the same! It is unthinkable of you. Will the Judge of all the earth not do what is right?� Gen 18:25

Why didn't God just make those sinners in Sodom do the right thing? Calvinism doesn't support freedom of choice, thus God chooses for us. Why in world would a God that 'gave His only begotten Son' for the whole world only make some do what is right? It makes zero sense. Doesn't the Almighty 'do what is right'? Forcing someone to do anything is not living for God, it's being God's puppet. A person that kills those that are forced to do bad because of that same person wants them to do bad is just sick.

[2ndRateMind]

…as far as Calvinism goes I am 3-point (Total Depravity, Unconditional Election, and Perseverance of the Saints).

Can this be done consistently?
If humans are totally depraved then how can grace not be irresistible? Total depravity means that we cannot do anything good by our own will, if we have a choice between good and evil, we will choose evil.

So, my position is that humanity, given a decent chance and reasonably moral environment, is not totally depraved. Mostly, as I look around me, my neighbours of whatever creed, colour, gender or class are mostly good, and mostly do good. So I reject Calvinism on those grounds alone.

Best wishes, 2RM.

[Petrameansrock]

[Replying to post 1 by McCulloch]

Your point is very good. However, I chalk up the disparity to the divine nature of God and our inability to comprehend it. Pure Calvanism is very logical and legalistic, but it leaves out so much. Therefore I am a 3 point Calvanist. I think man is utterly depraved, we do not have the power to save ourselves. However, I do believe that we can reject the Gospel of Christ, I see this many times when I witness. The best way to explain it (though still lacking is this). Our total depravity allows us to reject the Gospel, God's grace alone allows us to accept it. I know this does not hold up to intense logical scrutiny, but the wisdom of God is foolishness to man.

[Petrameansrock]

[Replying to post 2 by 2timothy316]

And to a point I agree with you. I think that rejecting Calvanism entirely is dangerous and borders on rejecting God's sovereignty, however I think both Calvanism and Arminianism both miss the mark. It has to be some combination of these and while it doesn't make much sense neither does the Trinity.

[2timothy316]

However, I chalk up the disparity to the divine nature of God and our inability to comprehend it. Pure Calvanism is very logical and legalistic, but it leaves out so much....I know this does not hold up to intense logical scrutiny, but the wisdom of God is foolishness to man.

I agree, that God's wisdom is way higher than man's. The Bible even says so. "“For my thoughts are not your thoughts, And your ways are not my ways,� declares Jehovah." - Isaiah 55:8

But can we not understand God ever?
The Bible says, “If . . . you give forth your voice for discernment itself, if you keep seeking for it as for silver, and as for hid treasures you keep searching for it, in that case you will understand the fear of Jehovah, and you will find the very knowledge of God. For Jehovah himself gives wisdom.� (Proverbs 2:3-6)

I also agree that mankind, 'does not have the power to save ourselves'. God gave His Son Jesus to save all mankind. The Bible even supports this too. “There is no salvation in anyone else, for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must get saved.� (Acts 4:12)

What can we say about Calvinism? Is the doctrine God's thoughts? Or man's, in this case, John Calvin's thoughts? Doesn't the name Calvinism kind of tell us who's thoughts these are? When you say you 'chalk up the inability to understand to the inability to understand', is what you are not able to understand Calvin's thoughts? I'm curious, when did people allow Calvin to substitute for God's thought's?

Personally I choose the Bible to explain God's thoughts. *My user handle is 2 Timothy 3:16 for a reason

So the question is there anything us humans can do to help save our lives? Yes. Though it is not our power but it is our choice that can help. The gift of life is still a gift. Jesus' giving his life is still a gift. Yet Jesus has the final judgement as to who he gives that gift to. All can attain it but not all will choose to accept it, thus Jesus will not give it to those that do not want it. Where does it say all of this in the Bible? Well, if anyone wants to know that feel free to ask and I'll continue.

[Petrameansrock]

[Replying to post 6 by 2timothy316]

Yup. Many are called few are chosen. I think the real error here is that too many people have tried to explain God's nature, and it can't be done. This even applies, somewhat, to the Trinity. I totally agree that Calvanism is way too much about a man, Calvin, and the same can be said of Arminianism. We can't know everything there is to know about this subject, we just have to chalk it up to God's divine nature. That being said certain elements of Calvinism (Total Depravity and Unconditional Election) are very Biblical, so we can't throw the baby out with the bathwater.

[2timothy316]

That being said certain elements of Calvinism (Total Depravity and Unconditional Election) are very Biblical, so we can't throw the baby out with the bathwater.

Those elements contradict the Bible though. I am of the camp that the Bible doesn't contradict itself.

So if you don't mind let us set the definitions of Total Depravity and Unconditional Election. I did a little Googleing and found the following. If you wouldn't mind please accept or alter the definitions to what you believe.

Total Depravity: It is the teaching that, as a consequence of the Fall of Man, every person born into the world is enslaved to the service of sin as a result of their fallen nature and, apart from the efficacious or prevenient grace of God, is utterly unable to choose to follow God, refrain from evil, or accept the gift of salvation as it is offered.

Unconditional Election:The doctrine relating to Predestination that describes the actions and motives of God in eternity past, before He created the world, where he predestinated some people to receive salvation, the elect, and the rest he left to continue in their sins and receive the just punishment, eternal damnation, for their transgressions of God's law as outlined in the old and new Testaments of the Bible. God made these choices according to his own purposes apart from any conditions or qualities related to those persons.

Are those definitions 100% acceptable? I would prefer no 'mostly' or 'kind of' answers. If it's not right then I want the 100% right definition as you understand it please and thanks!

[Petrameansrock]

[Replying to post 8 by 2timothy316]

I don't subscribe to those definitions. More so I object to Unconditional Election. I believe that those who God has chosen to be His were not chosen because of acts we do or what we bring to the table, but because of His grace. I also believe that Total Depravity means that we are so depraved that apart from God's grace we cannot make a choice for Him, His grace makes that possible.

[2timothy316]

[Replying to post 8 by 2timothy316]

I don't subscribe to those definitions. More so I object to Unconditional Election. I believe that those who God has chosen to be His were not chosen because of acts we do or what we bring to the table, but because of His grace. I also believe that Total Depravity means that we are so depraved that apart from God's grace we cannot make a choice for Him, His grace makes that possible.

I see. Thanks for answering. One more question. Do you think the Bible is God's word and we can trust it as complete truth? 1 Thessalonians 2:13 says of the Word of God, "when you received the word of God, which you heard from us, you accepted it not as a human word, but as it actually is, the word of God." Do think that to be true?