Petrameansrock wrote:
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Replying to post 21 by ttruscott]
Fine. Let's do this. Psalm 51:5 says we were conceived in inquity. Isaiah 53:5 says that Jesus was crushed for our inquity. To not believe in original sin, aka iniquity, cheapens Jesus's sacrifice.
As I have said, I contend that only (and all)
SINNERS are sown into the earth as humans...and are sinners AT their conception as humans. You seem to be conflating conception with creation, a common misconception fostered by orthodoxy.
Being a sinner at conception by an act of creation IS NOT the only way for us to be sinners at conception and the supposition that we chose by our free will to be sinful in HIS sight before our conception does not in the least diminish Christ's sacrifice.
Also, while your view on us being in Sheol before is not directly contradicted by scripture, it is also not supported by scripture. I could say pink is actually purple, and say that the Bible doesn't contradict that, and I would be correct. But it certainly doesn't support it.
The Bible does indeed support our being in Sheol pre-earth:
Job 1:21 And Job said, Naked came I out of my mother's womb and naked shall I return thither. Where did Job expect to go? According to orthodoxy, he is either really going back to the womb, which is ludicrous, or he is going back to annihilation, the state he was in before he was created. Only PCE theology contends for the straightforward and realistic interpretation that he expected to go back to Sheol at his death, that part of Sheol called Paradise, the home of GOD.
I know this is not a proof verse but it certainly is a support verse in light of
Psalm 9:17 The wicked shall RETURN to Sheol... (Kiel - Delitzsch(#16)):
Yea, back to Hades must the wicked RETURN... No one can return to where they have never been. Any ordinary person reading this verse would interpret it at face value as meaning they came from there and they will go back there, since return means:
to go or come back; revert; bring, give, send, hit, put, or pay back;
a going or coming back, a happening again. Only the theology of our being created on earth at conception or at birth contends against that.
Even
Ecclesiastes 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto GOD who gave it. can be read to lend a soupon of support to our pre-existence in Sheol because our supposed creation on earth as evil in Adam created us "not in or with GOD" but outside of HIM so, as on earth and sinful we were never with GOD to be able to
return to HIM.
1 Peter 2:25 For ye were as sheep going astray: but are now returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls. To go astray means to leave the flock. Since Christ did not lose us through inattention or carelessness, then our going astray had to have some idea of rebellion on our part. Apart from denying that we were therefore NOT created astray (in Adam's sin) this leads to the question:
When did we become part of His flock if we are already astray at conception? The idea we join His flock at our conversion to Him as our saviour is denied by this verse that clearly says we are returned to His flock and under His care by our conversion! Oh, time for poetry to save us from literalism!
In order to dodge a tenant you do not like, iniquity, you have created your own belief.
Excuse me, but I do not dodge iniquity in anyway and for you to think that is my meaning says something about your orthodox iconicism.
I deny only that we are CREATED as sinners by being made human inheriting Adam's sin in our conception and claim that our sinfulness IS OUR OWN RESPONSIBILITY ONLY by our free will and do not put it off onto Adam or GOD as orthodoxy does.
I contend that each person and them alone are responsible for the sin and suffering and death in their life, not Adam and not GOD by making them human in Adam, which HE did not have to do having already proven HE could make people as 'innocent' individuals. Some dodge, eh?
I will add some more here because of your hint of scorn that I would make up a theology without any Biblical suport. It seems like the Holy Spirit would have us believe that all of the Church has personally apostatised from Christ prior to their conversion in this life as per
1 Peter 2:25. I think that Peter bore added witness to this fact in
1 Peter 1 1:3 Blessed be the GOD and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ ...which ...hath BEGOTTEN US AGAIN unto a lively hope...
Just when was the first time you were begotten by GOD? And when did you get unbegotten? Well, unless you are one of those earthly backsliden types, the only time such an unbegetting or rebellion could have taken place is prior to your conception. And since Peter is writing to the whole Church rather than to just the backsliden types, he must be referring to a pre-conception rebellion and the straying of HIS elect since that time, which straying or rebellion ends only upon conversion to obedience unto holiness to that Shepherd, that is, upon being born in Christ (begotten) again.
Revelation 3:12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of My GOD, and he shall go no more out. NIV:
Never again shall he leave it.
So, all these overcomers had left GOD's temple, which I presume is the one in Paradise. You know, the one Moses copied, as per
Acts 7:44 Our fathers had the tabernacle of witness in the wilderness, as HE had appointed, speaking unto Moses, that he should make it according to the fashion that he had seen., and
Hebrews 8:5 Who serve unto the example and shadow of heavenly things, as Moses was admonished of GOD when he was about to make the tabernacle: for, See, saith He, that thou make all things according to the pattern shewed to thee in the mount.
So when were these overcomers in the Temple in heaven to which they will return and then never leave? Well, you should know my explanation for when and how they left by now. What's yours?
So not one verse contrary to PCE and these and many other corollary verses that can be read to support logically our Pre-Conception Existence... Your dismay at me making up Bible support is empty.
PCE Theology as I see it...
We had an existence with a free will in Sheol before the creation of the physical universe. Here we chose to be able to become holy or to be eternally evil in YHWH's sight. Then the physical universe was created and all sinners were sent to earth.
This theology debunks the need to base Christianity upon the blasphemy of creating us in Adam's sin.
