If god doesn't follow his own rules, why should we?

[Princess Luna On The Moon]

*Let's assume the Christian god is real*

This is mostly about the Old Testament where many rules (the 10 Commandments for instance) are listed. If god so rarely follows his own rules and often switches character traits, why should we follow anything he says? Wouldn't his lack of consistency make him rather pathetic as a supreme leader?

Also, why should we follow something even if we find it immoral? Why is harming other humans in the name of god justified? Or, why is god allowed to get away with killing, harming, or ignoring us, yet whenever something good happens, he gets all the credit?

[Donray]

I pray for your soul when the Lamb will finally come and you realize we Christians were right all along, only by then, it will be too late.

Why do you think your right and Islam is wrong? After all, your god communicated with Mohmand many years after he communicated with any Christian and gave them a more recent scripture.

Must a Christian believe in the trinity?

[Donray]

[Replying to post 1 by Princess Luna On The Moon]

Did it ever occur to you that you have a feeble mind compared to God's. How in the world do you know He is not following His own rules

If humans have finite mind, they have limited understanding
If God has infinite mind and He has a complete understanding
If you are human, you understand less than God.

If we follow that logic, you cannot judge whether God follows His own rules Assuming (or knowing by faith) God of the Christian Bible exists, we can also follow this logic:

Since God is the sovereign Creator of rules, standards is within His being and character
Breaking rules goes against God's character
God cannot contradict Himself and therefore; He follows and implements them throughout Creation.

So just because you may, through disbelief, may not think God is following his own rules, does not make it so. It is more likely you just don't comprehend what God does because you have a finite mind.

Since you seem to know about your god's mind, would you please describe how it works. Begin by telling us if it is organic or not.

[ttruscott]

[Replying to post 62 by ttruscott]

excuse me but the age to judge a person is when he start to become adult so he can have knowledge about what is going on babies don't sin

Only sinners die. The holy angels do not die.
Babies die.
The theology babies are not sinful is near sighted emotionalism.

The following suggests GOD's wrath includes children. There is no hint here that HE is killing them to save them.: Ezekiel 9:5 As I listened, he said to the others, Follow him through the city and kill, without showing pity or compassion. 6 Slaughter old men, young men and maidens, women and children, but do not touch anyone who has the mark. Begin at my sanctuary. So they began with the elders who were in front of the temple.

Gen 6:
11 Now the earth was corrupt in Gods sight and was full of violence.
12 God saw how corrupt the earth had become, for all the people on earth had corrupted their ways.
13 So God said to Noah, I am going to put an end to all people, for the earth is filled with violence because of them. I am surely going to destroy both them and the earth. Babies too were destroyed in this judgment upon sin.

Can babies sin in the womb?
Genesis 25:22 - And the children [Jacob and Esau] STRUGGLED together within her. STRUGGLED means to literally crush each other to pieces but since the fine translators of this verse cannot countenance such thoughts against their chosen theology, they hide the fact by making it seem like a jostling for room, not murder.

Now, if they were fighting, at least one, if not both, had to be being evil, that is, doing evil works, or we'd have to admit that they were each fighting the other by the will of GOD. Hebrew tradition has them trying to kill each other in accordance with the meaning of the word.

We know from this story that babies can fight in the womb, that they therefore know at least some of their future on earth and the status of themselves and others and that they already had chosen to become sinful, ie fight for themselves and not trust in GOD.

We also know that their future life is important to them in the womb and they are emotionally involved with it no matter that we all forget this as we forget most of our earliest years on earth. It also lends support to the interpretation of Ps 51:5... sinful from the time my mother conceived me. as being straight forward truth.

[Donray]

[Replying to post 62 by ttruscott]

excuse me but the age to judge a person is when he start to become adult so he can have knowledge about what is going on babies don't sin

Only sinners die. The holy angels do not die.
Babies die.
The theology babies are not sinful is near sighted emotionalism.

The following suggests GOD's wrath includes children. There is no hint here that HE is killing them to save them.: Ezekiel 9:5 As I listened, he said to the others, Follow him through the city and kill, without showing pity or compassion. 6 Slaughter old men, young men and maidens, women and children, but do not touch anyone who has the mark. Begin at my sanctuary. So they began with the elders who were in front of the temple.

Gen 6:
11 Now the earth was corrupt in Gods sight and was full of violence.
12 God saw how corrupt the earth had become, for all the people on earth had corrupted their ways.
13 So God said to Noah, I am going to put an end to all people, for the earth is filled with violence because of them. I am surely going to destroy both them and the earth. Babies too were destroyed in this judgment upon sin.

Can babies sin in the womb?
Genesis 25:22 - And the children [Jacob and Esau] STRUGGLED together within her. STRUGGLED means to literally crush each other to pieces but since the fine translators of this verse cannot countenance such thoughts against their chosen theology, they hide the fact by making it seem like a jostling for room, not murder.

Now, if they were fighting, at least one, if not both, had to be being evil, that is, doing evil works, or we'd have to admit that they were each fighting the other by the will of GOD. Hebrew tradition has them trying to kill each other in accordance with the meaning of the word.

We know from this story that babies can fight in the womb, that they therefore know at least some of their future on earth and the status of themselves and others and that they already had chosen to become sinful, ie fight for themselves and not trust in GOD.

We also know that their future life is important to them in the womb and they are emotionally involved with it no matter that we all forget this as we forget most of our earliest years on earth. It also lends support to the interpretation of Ps 51:5... sinful from the time my mother conceived me. as being straight forward truth.

So, Jesus do not die for our sins!!!!!

What did Jesus die for?

It is your god that kills babies because he made then sinful? Or does your god just kill them because he likes it?

[Kevin Cross]

Excuse me, but Yahway is not killing babies just because he enjoys it. He is trying to teach the Pharaoh a lesson for disobedience. All the babies that were in the line of secession. God did not kill all Egyptian babies, nor was this action done in haste. It was the last resort after nine other plagues.

The Judeo-Christian God does not take life lightly. Therefore, God is always consistent with His own principles--one being:

For the wages of sin is death" (Rom. 6:23)

And the Bible says:

Then the Lord said to him, (Abraham) Know for certain that for four hundred years your descendants will be strangers in a country not their own and that they will be enslaved and mistreated there." Ge 15:13

When we fast forward to Exodus, the account continues:

"6That same day Pharaoh gave this order to the slave drivers and overseers in charge of the people: 7 'You are no longer to supply the people with straw for making bricks; let them go and gather their own straw. 8 But require them to make the same number of bricks as before; dont reduce the quota. They are lazy; that is why they are crying out, Let us go and sacrifice to our God. 9 Make the work harder for the people so that they keep working and pay no attention to lies.'" Ex 5:6-9

Exodus 7:5-9 continues with God's response:

[/quote] But I will harden Pharaohs heart, and though I multiply my signs and wonders in Egypt, 4 he will not listen to you. Then I will lay my hand on Egypt and with mighty acts of judgment I will bring out my divisions, my people the Israelites. 5 And the Egyptians will know that I am the Lord when I stretch out my hand against Egypt and bring the Israelites out of it.

Over 4 chapters of Exodus is devoted to nine plagues until one final blow to pharaoh was given:

"29 At midnight the Lord struck down all the firstborn in Egypt, from the firstborn of Pharaoh, who sat on the throne, to the firstborn of the prisoner, who was in the dungeon, and the firstborn of all the livestock as well. 30 Pharaoh and all his officials and all the Egyptians got up during the night, and there was loud wailing in Egypt, for there was not a house without someone dead." Ex 12:29-30

All along, God gave Pharaoh his choice: Obey or don't If you disobey God, you may die or others close to you may die. That's another principle: choice.

In the case of Abraham being commanded to sacrifice Jacob (Ge 22:2) Abraham needed to learn he trusted God beyond all else. In the end Abraham listened to God and Jacob lived.

So God is the only one who can use death and murder for good -- humans cannot. No rules violations occur by God.

[Donray]

[Replying to post 74 by Kevin Cross]

Since it was all the Pharaoh's fault why did your god harden his heart?

In the story, it is stated, no less than eight times, that God had hardened the heart of Pharaoh king of Egypt. This hardening caused the Pharaoh to refuse emancipation for the Israelites, leading in turn to more plagues.

You also need to address your god drowning babies with a flood, and also killing them with fire in another story. Also

So, are you lying, is the bible lying or is your god a baby murder.

ALSO:

Hosea 13:16New International Version (NIV)
16
The people of Samaria must bear their guilt,
because they have rebelled against their God.
They will fall by the sword;
their little ones will be dashed to the ground,
their pregnant women ripped open.[a]


AND

Samuel 15:3New King James Version (NKJV)
3 Now go and attack Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and do not spare them. But kill both man and woman, infant and nursing child, ox and sheep, camel and donkey.

[Kevin Cross]

[Replying to post 73 by Donray]

Because of a busy week and a prolonged power outage with no computer access is the reason for my delayed response. My apologies.
--

First, I dont think anybody is lying or the Biblical scriptures are lying. Rather, I think humans have limited understanding of God. Who am I to say what God was thinking long ago? All I am is a speck of dust who does not deserve one nanosecond of attention from God, but the God I know is expert in changing specks of dust into roses. I will not mock God in order to score debating points.

Second, I was always taught in order to interpret the Bible accurately, you have to view it in context. This means if you are interested in a certain part of scripture, you have to read what comes before and what comes after it to know what a verse, paragraph, chapter, book, actually means. Now, lets take a look at one of the verses you are trying to refute me with " Hosea 13:16.

The people of Samaria must bear their guilt,
because they have rebelled against their God.
They will fall by the sword;
their little ones will be dashed to the ground,
their pregnant women ripped open.[a]

Now, in context, lets take a look at the meaning leading up to Ho 13:16:

2 Now they sin more and more;
they make idols for themselves from their silver,
cleverly fashioned images,
all of them the work of craftsmen.
It is said of these people,
They offer human sacrifices!
They kiss[a] calf-idols!
3 Therefore they will be like the morning mist,
like the early dew that disappears,
like chaff swirling from a threshing floor,
like smoke escaping through a window.
4 But I have been the LORD your God
ever since you came out of Egypt.
You shall acknowledge no God but me,
no Savior except me (Hosea 13:2-4).

As a consequence, one of the things that the Lord said was found in Ho 13:16 which you pointed out:

16 The people of Samaria must bear their guilt,
because they have rebelled against their God.
They will fall by the sword;
their little ones will be dashed to the ground,
their pregnant women ripped open.

Lets now compare that to after the Lord threatening such heinous acts of violence. God also tells people of Israel what He promises if they repent:

[a]Return, Israel, to the LORD your God.
Your sins have been your downfall!
2 Take words with you
and return to the LORD.
Say to him:
Forgive all our sins
and receive us graciously,
that we may offer the fruit of our lips.
3 Assyria cannot save us;
we will not mount warhorses.
We will never again say Our gods
to what our own hands have made,
for in you the fatherless find compassion (Hosea 14:1-3).

Now, this context gives a whole new perspective on God and that situation He was trying to correct. I dont see a sinister God trying to enact violence just for the sake of it. He does not enjoy killing babies or anyone. The Isrealites were being disobedient and God took drastic action. In the end, God told the Isrealites what to say if they turned from their wicked ways. Nobody died " babies did not die in those chapters. God just was laying down consequences if they disobeyed further. I know it seems to be unreasonable and violent when one reads that passage, but for God it was just right to get His people to finally listen to Him.

1 Samuel 15:3 says:

3 Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they
have, and spare them not;
but slay both man and woman,
infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass.

The picture of before 15:3 that is complex. We pick up from 1 Samuel 14:1-3 where Jonathan and another man go into battle against the Philistines:

14 Now it came to pass upon a day, that Jonathan the son of Saul said unto the young man that bare his armour, Come, and let us go over to the Philistines' garrison, that is on the other side. But he told not his father.
2 And Saul tarried in the uttermost part of Gibeah under a pomegranate tree which is in Migron: and the people that were with him were about six hundred men;
3 And Ahiah, the son of Ahitub, Ichabod's brother, the son of Phinehas, the son of Eli, the LORD's priest in Shiloh, wearing an ephod. And the people knew not that Jonathan was gone.

The people were eating animals with blood and Samuel passes on the Lords wishes (1 Samuel 14:33-35). Fast forward, Saul did not keep the Lords commands by not killing Amalek, who treated Israel cruelly (1 Samuel 15:2-3). Saul took the King of the Amalekites alive and killed the people while taking the animals (1 Samuel 15:8-9). This was not what God commanded based on 1 Sa 15:3. Rightly, God was disappointed (along with Samuel) in Saul (1 Samuel 15:11) who He wanted to make king of Israel. God spoke through Samuel to Saul and confronted him (1 Samuel 15:22-3) and Saul repents (1 Samuel 15:24-25). It was Gods plan to make Saul King over Israel. Yes, He allowed the Amalekites to be killed off because of sin. It does not say babies were killed off, but I suppose it is possible.

God of the Judeo-Christian tradition hates death of any kind especially babies or children because of sin. No, DonRay, God is NOT a baby killer and the Bible does not support such a hypothesis.

[Donray]

[Replying to post 76 by Kevin Cross]

Nothing like making things up to justify your god murdering babies all the time. All your read context means is that your god is a vengeful killer. What you are trying to prove is that your god was justify for saying he would kill babies and rip open pregnant woman.

You also failed to address way your god needed to drown babies with a flood.

Why he needed to kill everyone including babies by burning then to death at Sodom and Gomorrah.

Again all you are likely to do is try to justify murdering babies by maybe saying your god has a right to kill his creations. Does that mean a mother has the right to kill their babies? Same thing.

Also what about all the over kill in Egypt? Your god most likely murdered 90% of the population thru his deeds.

[Kevin Cross]

Donray

Your anger against the Judeo-Christian blinds you.

At the beginning of this forum, Princess Luna on the Moon said

*Let's assume the Christian god is real*

If this is so, do you know what you are doing by questioning the sovereign God of the Universe and beyond -- especially in that rabid and vicious tone? Think about it.

I take it that you're a Muslim and you could say if Allah is God, then I am the one in trouble. At that point the argument becomes circular and we have a stalemate in the argument:

My God is better than your God -- Nany-nah-nah.

Meanwhile, the Athiests will be laughing at us saying:

Look at those idiots -- arguing over a God that doesn't even exist, no matter what they call it.

In the Bible, the OT mentions the word "kill" 127 times (ex: Gen 4:15, Gen 12:12, Ex 1:16, Nu 22:29, Is 66:3, 1 Kg 21:19, La 2:21) and the word "murder" appears in the OT 17 times (ex: Nu 35:16, Jb 24:14, Ps 10:8, Ps 94:6, 1:21, Je 4:31, Je 7:9, Ho 6:9, Ho 9:13). I read more than these and none of the verses say God himself wanted to kill babies. Why would he destroy His new creation. It makes no sense! Even if I granted that you are correct and babies died because of God's will, we have no idea about where those souls went. I argue young souls go to Heaven to be with Him because they were too young to make a free choice of faith.

Let's go to another part of the Bible and look at what Jesus said about children. Remember regardless of what other faith traditions say about Jesus, this debate forum is focused on the Christian God. Thus, Christians think of Jesus as God in human form. Luke 18:15-17 says:

But Jesus called them unto him, and said, Suffer little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God. Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child shall in no wise enter therein.

It seems God gives preferential treatment to children (including babies) when it comes to Heaven and admonishes all adults to have a child-like attitude to enter Heaven.

Donray, I am a mere mortal who has mere mortal with limited knowledge and have no authority to speak for God or justify His actions. God has to do that Himself. He has no obligation to justify His actions to us.

You gave a whole list of accusations without any supporting evidence.

You gave me two passages to respond to which I did, but your concern about Sodom and Gomorrah and babies dying in floods or babies dying in Egypt, I was unaware you wanted me to respond to as well. My answer is still the same -- I don't know why these things happened. God had His own purposes for our own good. That's the end of that. Don't ask me anymore questions I can't possibly answer or debate with you

[Donray]

[Replying to post 78 by Kevin Cross]

Why do you fell the need to carry on about things when you have no answer for why your god likes murdering babies.

Of course most Christians including yourself have no idea about your god, heaven, or hell. This is the reason you stop responding to the questions and do preaching.

You do know that the you are lying when you try to tell me what I think and do.

You are right about you going to hell since you are worshipping the wrong god.

So, continue to justify why your god murders babies and children.