Did Christ have free will?

[brianbbs67]

Did Jesus/Yeshua/whateverhisname have free will. We see him quote" the son can only do as the father has instructed". Or was he so devoted to the father it never was an issue?

So, was he locked into the doctrine? Or could he act of his will? I can see examples of both. What do you all see?

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 1 by brianbbs67]

I don't know what you mean by "locked into doctrine". What does that mean?

[brianbbs67]

[Replying to post 1 by brianbbs67]

I don't know what you mean by "locked into doctrine". What does that mean?

I could have used plan. Means , he was unmovable in his adherence to God's plan(so free will doesn't matter). Like some people are in their religious beliefs.

[Divine Insight]

[Replying to post 1 by brianbbs67]

I don't know what you mean by "locked into doctrine". What does that mean?

I could have used plan. Means , he was unmovable in his adherence to God's plan(so free will doesn't matter). Like some people are in their religious beliefs.

It wouldn't even be like some religious people are.

In the case of Christ he could not fail. If Christ fails God fails.

If religious people fail to continue in their religious beliefs it's not a problem for this God. Those people simply fail this God, but their failure would not thwart God's plan. Therefore they at least have the possibility of free will choice.

With Jesus the possibility to chose to do anything different would not be an option.

So you can't even compare Jesus with a dedicated religious zealot. It's not the same.

[brianbbs67]

[Replying to post 1 by brianbbs67]

I don't know what you mean by "locked into doctrine". What does that mean?

I could have used plan. Means , he was unmovable in his adherence to God's plan(so free will doesn't matter). Like some people are in their religious beliefs.

I wouldn't even be like some religious people are.

In the case of Christ he could not fail. If Christ fails God fails.

If religious people fail to continue in their religious beliefs it's not a problem for this God. Those people simply fail this God, but their failure would not thwart God's plan. Therefore they at least have the possibility of free will choice.

With Jesus the possibility to chose to do anything different would not be an option.

So you can't even compare Jesus with a dedicated religious zealot. It's not the same.

I think you accept human characteristics to God or Jesus which don't apply. Mystery appears in the word by purpose. His will gets done whether certain characters do it or not.

I think I will invent a word here. Jesus/Yeshua was definitely Zealotenous. He sought to do what the Father instructed, regardless.

[Divine Insight]

I think you accept human characteristics to God or Jesus which don't apply. Mystery appears in the word by purpose. His will gets done whether certain characters do it or not.

I think I will invent a word here. Jesus/Yeshua was definitely Zealotenous. He sought to do what the Father instructed, regardless.

It has nothing to do with human characteristics.

Jesus could not fail in this religious paradigm without the God himself failing since it was God's plan to send Jesus to earth specifically for the purpose of human salvation.

Therefore Jesus could not have played any role in the outcome.

And of course, this is even more true if the Christians want to claim that Jesus was an incarnation of God himself, or part of a Trinity deity who's plan it was to have Jesus become the sacrificial lamb for the salvation of men.

There's no getting around this. At the very best (i.e. assuming there really was a God behind this entire ordeal), the entire thing could not have been anything more than a drama played out by God himself without any possibility of failure to achieve precisely what this God had in mind. In other words, the whole thing would have been a scam created by this God himself. It would have been nothing more than a pretentious play played out by God himself. Basically a lie. Including the fallacy that Satan was tempting Jesus and that Jesus supposedly resisted those temptations.

At the very worst (for Christians) the whole thing was a man-made superstitious fairy tale. No doubt some guy named Jesus may very well have preached and called the Jewish Priests names and was ultimately crucified for his apostasy against the religious authorities of his day. But beyond that, there would not have been any God behind this entire thing.

The Christian story of Jesus is necessarily false as described in the New Testament. Especially because of the claim that Jesus was miraculously born of a virgin.

~~~~~

Actually if Jesus had been a normal mortal man who never sinned and was crucified because of his devotion to God, then this story could have had some potential merit.

But that's not the story. The story is that Jesus was the virgin-born Son of God sent specifically for this mission. Remember in Christianity "God gave his only begotten Son". This is not a story about a mortal man who was sinless and thus saved mankind. This is about a virgin-born demigod sent by God himself to become the sacrificial lamb for men.

That's where it fails.

In fact, in Christianity you can't even have Jesus being a demigod, because the Christians won't stand for that. They have chosen to go with the idea of the Trinity where Jesus and God on both aspects of the same divine Holy Spirit.

But that paradigm cannot stand.

[Divine Insight]

I think I will invent a word here. Jesus/Yeshua was definitely Zealotenous. He sought to do what the Father instructed, regardless.

That would only work if Jesus was a mortal man like any other man.

But that's not the story.

Jesus was the virgin-born "Son of God" sent by God specifically for this mission.

Therefore Jesus' could not fail. So talking about what Jesus might have "sought to do" is irrelevant. He would have no choice but to do precisely as God had planned, lest God himself would have failed in his plan to have his only begotten Son become the savior of mankind.

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 1 by brianbbs67]

I don't know what you mean by "locked into doctrine". What does that mean?

I could have used plan. Means , he was unmovable in his adherence to God's plan(so free will doesn't matter). Like some people are in their religious beliefs.

So the question could be: "Does God ever change his mind or adjust his plans?"

Have I understood that correctly?

[JP Cusick]

I could have used plan. Means , he was unmovable in his adherence to God's plan(so free will doesn't matter). Like some people are in their religious beliefs.

I have never really liked the claims of "free will" since it is NEVER (never ever) said in the scriptures and it is not a sound doctrine.

People have options and choices but that is not really a free will, as like you get to choose chocolate or vanilla as the two choices - which has nothing to do with a free will.

The Bible tells us of prophesy as everything is under the control of the Father and there is a grand plan for humanity and thereby there is very little in the way of having any free will.

People do not choose to be born (no free will) and no choice about getting sick or suffering or eventually we die (so again no free will) and the Bible declares every person is to get resurrected and no free will in that, and so "free will" is excessively over rated.

Jesus was tempted to sin - and that is about the most "free will" that anyone gets.

To live right then we reject our freedom to sin, and we live by the righteous rules.

That Jesus obeyed the Father does not in any way take away His free will to choose otherwise.

[Divine Insight]

That Jesus obeyed the Father does not in any way take away His free will to choose otherwise.

It does when disobedience is not an option. This is what Christians are refusing to recognize. In this religious paradigm there is no room for Jesus to have failed to fulfill God's plan.

[JP Cusick]

It does when disobedience is not an option. This is what Christians are refusing to recognize. In this religious paradigm there is no room for Jesus to have failed to fulfill God's plan.

It is a matter of faith - not a commandment.

Jesus was the one who changed commandments into a matter of faith - that is a big part of the Gospel.

Jesus would not sin based on His faith - not because it was a commandment.

The concept that Jesus could have failed is based on the perspective of our self, that yes we could have failed because we have weak will-power and we fall short, and we are wrong to project our own shortcoming onto Christ who proved us as wrong.

You are claiming that Jesus could have failed - and it is Jesus His self who declares that you are wrong.

To have free will is to be weak and to sin, while the strong use their will-power in order to stay in submission to the loving Father.