"We are all sinners..."

[Willum]

Jews and Christians claim we are all sinners, but that is a belief according to the Bible.

Is it right for them to be able to be able to claim, "We are all sinners," when a sin is supposedly something aberrant and vile?

I don't want to be called aberrant and vile.

When they claim "We are all sinners," are they only referring to themselves? or are they saying that we, whom don't follow their religion, engage in the practices they adhere to - indeed brag about?

I, for one, don't sin, just as I don't make wishes on Leprechaun Gold.

It seems to me, if they wish to claim, even brag about being born in sin, it is their right, but to make this sweeping claim about the rest of us is insulting.

Is there any way, if you don't believe in the Bible's definition of sin, that you can sin?

[marco]

[Replying to post 48 by marco]

You are certainly correct, the concept of sin does make us feel bad about ourselves.
(I am deliberately softening your imperative of "getting" us to feel bad about ourselves V/R.)

But why would God, presumably, need us to feel bad about ourselves? It is clearly some kind of driver whether deliberate or intrinsic to the religion.

You are saying, "We all sin," is a effort to commiserate...
We can all feel guilty or bad, or whatever together.

Forgive me, you have touched on a point I do not have solid grasp on, though I can see there is something to it...
Thoughts?

Once people feel they are sinners, that they have done wrong and deserve punishment, they can feel better by making amends. Why not contribute a large sum of money to God - or God's representative? Or why not go to some religious person and ask for pardon? Why not get followers to bend down five times a day in submission, not to God, but to religious authorities?

There is power in making people repent.

[William]

[Replying to post 51 by marco]

Once people feel they are sinners, that they have done wrong and deserve punishment, they can feel better by making amends. Why not contribute a large sum of money to God - or God's representative? Or why not go to some religious person and ask for pardon? Why not get followers to bend down five times a day in submission, not to God, but to religious authorities?

There is power in making people repent.

I would argue that these particular examples are abuses of power.

There have been moments in my life where I have wronged others, and have at a later time felt genuine regret and wanted to make amends. Biblical script was part of that process - so I am also guilty of requiring some form of external instruction to help trigger the process of repentance for my sins against others rather than relying solely on the natural inclination to the self honesty of introspection, although - not to be too hard on myself, I think that both external and internal processes were co-creative in terms of helping me to come to the conclusion that I had wronged others and felt it the correct thing to right the wrongs and learn from this in order to help prevent me from making the same choices in the future.

In light of my own theist based beliefs, I think I am an aspect of GOD-consciousness learning to reintegrate into that quality of thought, so, with that in mind, in genuine repentance I do not see GOD as abusing power by requiring I make all effort to incorporate GOD Consciousness into the external world as best I am able.

I do not feel inferior to atheists who claim to do the same without the need of any idea of GOD assisting them with that process, any more than I feel the need to drop belief in GOD on account of such claims.

I did not do these things based on any of your examples quoted except that I did feel I deserved some form of punishment - befitting the crime as it were, as well as including recognition of my willingness to fess up without the threat of exposure. I could have just got on with things with no one being the wiser if I thought that doing so would remove the guilt. Obviously I didn't think it could, so opted for confession.

The wrongs were righted and the guilt removed on account of that. Guilt is not a bad thing. Ignoring guilt may be.

[Wootah]

[Replying to post 10 by Willum]

Rights dont exist.

So what you are really asking is whether you can use the power of the state to stop people you disagree with.

Answer: of course you can.

[Willum]

So here we are - pretty much near the end, of this OP.

The vote is 4/5.

That means 55% of us do not believe "we all sin."

Pretty definitive, despite the contrary arguments.

It comes down to belief.
Christians and Jews want their beliefs respected - they sin.
Non-Christians and Jews want our belief respected - we do not sin.

So, when you say, "We all sin," make sure you are understood to mean, you all sin.
Some of us are awesome. See tag-line.

[Justin108]

So here we are - pretty much near the end, of this OP.

The vote is 4/5.

That means 55% of us do not believe "we all sin."

Pretty definitive, despite the contrary arguments.

It comes down to belief.
Christians and Jews want their beliefs respected - they sin.
Non-Christians and Jews want our belief respected - we do not sin.

So, when you say, "We all sin," make sure you are understood to mean, you all sin.
Some of us are awesome. See tag-line.

Ok so because most people who voted on this forum believe that we do not all sin, that means that we do not all sin...? Are you of the opinion that popular belief translates to fact? That would be an appeal to popularity - a logical fallacy. I hope you realize that the vast majority of the world's population believes in some sort of god, right? So going by your popular opinion = truth logic, there must be a god I guess.

Oh and just one more thing... Nine people voted. Nine. I would not base a conclusion of "well that must mean that we do not all sin" on a pitiful sample size of nine people. You consider a sample of nine people to be "pretty definitive"?

It comes down to belief.
Christians and Jews want their beliefs respected - they sin.
Non-Christians and Jews want our belief respected - we do not sin.

It does not come down to belief, it comes down to definition. When do facts ever come down to belief? The fact that an atheist says this is utterly baffling. That along with your appeal to popularity.

Definition of sin

a :an offense against religious or moral law
b :an action that is or is felt to be highly reprehensible
c :an often serious shortcoming :fault

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/sin

Considering the definition of sin, we all (probably) sin.

[Willum]

[Replying to post 55 by Justin108]

Sorry, Justin - the post was about belief.
People believe that the Bible tells us 'we all sin.'
People don't believe in the Bible can believe otherwise.
I wasn't talking about facts, but respect. You were free to discuss the definition with other debaters, nobody else cared to discuss the definition either. I certainly was comfortable enough with what 'sin was not to need discussion.
I find it demeaning to be accused of sinning.
Others mind less, but I find it analogous to being accused of not bathing.

[Justin108]

Sorry, Justin - the post was about belief.
People believe that the Bible tells us 'we all sin.'
People don't believe in the Bible can believe otherwise.

I never said you cannot believe otherwise, but until you can tell me what exactly it means to "not sin", you simply cannot claim you do not sin. "Oh but the Bible defines sin". I don't care. "Sin" is a word, it has a meaning, this meaning is also in the dictionary. So given the definition of this very real word, do you believe that you do not sin? That is, do you believe that you never
- go against the moral laws of Christianity and Judaism?
- do that which is or is felt to be highly reprehensible?
- act in a manner that expresses serious shortcoming?

As I've said before, you might not think that sinning is a big deal, but you still sin by definition.

To illustrate (again - with the hope that you'll actually address it this time)
- kosher is food that is eaten in accordance to Jewish law
- pork is not kosher
- I, not being Jewish, eat pork
- the fact that I am fine with eating pork does not suddenly make it kosher to me. It is still not kosher, regardless of whether kosher applies to me or not.

Similarly
- sin is that which is forbidden under religious law
- blasphemy (for example) is sin
- I, not being Christian nor Jewish, occasionally blaspheme (i.e sin)
- the fact that I am fine with blaspheming does not make blasphemy not a sin all of a sudden. It is still a sin, regardless of whether sin matters to me or not.

So you could say "sin does not matter to me" or "I don't care that I sin", but you cannot say that "I do not sin" if you, on occasions, do that which is forbidden by Christian and Jewish moral law.

Will you respond to this point? Or are you just going to give another dismissive blanket generic response?

I find it demeaning to be accused of sinning.

So?

Others mind less, but I find it analogous to being accused of not bathing.

The difference, again, is that by definition the claim that you do not bathe is wrong (I'm assuming), whereas by definition the claim that you sin is accurate. You might perhaps take issue with the claim that "all sinners deserve hell", but you cannot deny the fact that, by definition, you sin. This is the "sacrifice to Ba'al" argument all over again.

[Willum]

[Replying to post 57 by Justin108]

Whatever.
Can someone please answer Justin?

[marco]

The wrongs were righted and the guilt removed on account of that. Guilt is not a bad thing. Ignoring guilt may be.

That's a horse of a different colour. The general distribution of guilt, like manna to the multitude, is unhealthy. People can be filled with worry for no good reason. Of course people in such a state are vulnerable, which is maybe the intention.

Those who are genuinely guilty are right to make restitution if they can. The statement that we are all sinners is not about ignoring guilt, but attributing guilt where it does not belong.

[DanieltheDragon]

[Replying to post 58 by Willum]


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