God kills 70000 Israelites!!!

[alexxcJRO]

According to the perfect inerrant word of God(Bible) the omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent Yahweh kills 70,000 Israelites including countless of innocent(of any wrong-doing, sin) small children, infants for the sin of one man(David) after he or Satan incites him to sin:

2 Samuel 24

“David Enrolls the Fighting Men
24 Again the anger of the LORD burned against Israel, and he incited David against them, saying, “Go and take a census of Israel and Judah.�
2 So the king said to Joab and the army commanders[a] with him, “Go throughout the tribes of Israel from Dan to Beersheba and enroll the fighting men, so that I may know how many there are.�
3 But Joab replied to the king, “May the LORD your God multiply the troops a hundred times over, and may the eyes of my lord the king see it. But why does my lord the king want to do such a thing?�
4 The king’s word, however, overruled Joab and the army commanders; so they left the presence of the king to enroll the fighting men of Israel.
5 After crossing the Jordan, they camped near Aroer, south of the town in the gorge, and then went through Gad and on to Jazer. 6 They went to Gilead and the region of Tahtim Hodshi, and on to Dan Jaan and around toward Sidon. 7 Then they went toward the fortress of Tyre and all the towns of the Hivites and Canaanites. Finally, they went on to Beershebain the Negev of Judah.
8 After they had gone through the entire land, they came back to Jerusalem at the end of nine months and twenty days.
9 Joab reported the number of the fighting men to the king: In Israel there were eight hundred thousand able-bodied men who could handle a sword, and in Judah five hundred thousand.
10 David was conscience-stricken after he had counted the fighting men, and he said to the LORD, “I have sinned greatly in what I have done. Now, LORD, I beg you, take away the guilt of your servant. I have done a very foolish thing.�
11 Before David got up the next morning, the word of the LORD had come to Gad the prophet, David’s seer: 12 “Go and tell David, ‘This is what the LORD says: I am giving you three options. Choose one of them for me to carry out against you.’�
13 So Gad went to David and said to him, “Shall there come on you three years of famine in your land? Or three months of fleeing from your enemies while they pursue you? Or three days of plague in your land? Now then, think it over and decide how I should answer the one who sent me.�
14 David said to Gad, “I am in deep distress. Let us fall into the hands of the LORD, for his mercy is great; but do not let me fall into human hands.�
15 So the LORD sent a plague on Israel from that morning until the end of the time designated, and seventy thousand of the people from Dan to Beersheba died. 16 When the angel stretched out his hand to destroy Jerusalem, the LORD relented concerning the disaster and said to the angel who was afflicting the people, “Enough! Withdraw your hand.� The angel of the LORD was then at the threshing floor of Araunah the Jebusite.
17 When David saw the angel who was striking down the people, he said to the LORD, “I have sinned; I, the shepherd,[c] have done wrong. These are but sheep. What have they done? Let your hand fall on me and my family.� “

Observation: The account in 1 Chronicles is different then the account in 2 Samuel. (So much for the perfect, inerrant word of God)

Someone would wonder what abominable sin David committed that angered God so much to make him act in such horrendous way: killing tens of thousands of men, woman and children.

Hold on your straps people, here it comes: He did a census!!!

Imagine that. The poor guy did a census and Yahweh in his perfect wisdom, justice, benevolence decided that the punishment suited for this was not to punish in some way the person guilty of the wrong-doing, sin but instead kill 70 000 people innocent of this wrong-doing, sin; kill thousands of small children, infants who are innocent of any wrong-doing, sin.

David even asks a very wise question to God. Why punish others when he was the one guilty:

“I have sinned; I, the shepherd,[c] have done wrong. These are but sheep. What have they done?�

Off course the perfect God of the Bible does not answer the question. How would he?!!!

Q: How can anyone be so oblivious to such a huge discrepancy, contradiction between the supposed attributes of God (omnipotence, omniscience, omnibenevolence, perfect wisdom, justice, mercy) and the actions of this being portrait in the Bible?

Q: How can anyone praise, worship a being that inflicts so easily, so much suffering and death to thousands of innocent children? How can one call this being benevolent or wise or loving?

Q: How can anyone in their right mind, with their rational faculties intact defend such actions and not smell the foul stench of nonsense rotting their brain?

[JehovahsWitness]

does a painful but corrective medical procedure or surgery qualify as "harming others" (after all the patient will suffer)? Are all doctors that either endorse or literally participate in such actions evil?

Depends. Typically, no. For example, it would be evil if there is a better, less painful procedure, but a doctor opted for the worse alternative to earn more profit.

Is all war (that results in harm to others) evil?

No.

So, (correct me if I am wrong - with complete sentences if possible) are you saying that the causing harm (pain) or even death (wars kill) is not necessarily evil if doing so remains the best solution to the problem and the actions have not been taken for personal gain.

[JehovahsWitness]

Who decides what is evil? You?

Correct.

So before you were born, there was no evil because you did not exist to decide that an act was evil?

Not a rhetorical question.

JW

[Bust Nak]

So, (correct me if I am wrong - with complete sentences if possible) are you saying that the causing harm (pain) or even death (wars kill) is not necessarily evil if doing so remains the best solution to the problem and the actions have not been taken for personal gain.

Yes, I am saying that. I suppose this is when you will suggest that all the harm and death that God had a hand in, is always the best solution and never for personal gain.

So before you were born, there was no evil because you did not exist to decide that an act was evil?

No, there was evil because I am here now to retrospectively decide that an act was evil, just as I am preemptively deciding what kind of acts will be evil in the future even after my death.

[JehovahsWitness]

No, there was evil because I am here now to retrospectively decide that an act was evil, just as I am preemptively deciding what kind of acts will be evil in the future even after my death.

How will you be assess an act that hasn't been committed yet as evil when you are dead? And are acts that you don't know about evil (given the variants you yourself say are determining factors in a decision)? Do you have omniscient powers that would make your retrospecitve and preemptive decisions anything more than sterile rhetoric?

Joking aside...

Did you really mean to say "I decide what I personally consider evil because short of there being a God (who would be in a position to have all knowledge as to the "circumstances" and repurcussions of any given action) there is no universal standard of good and evil?

[JehovahsWitness]

Is taking back what is yours, given on condition, evil?

Depends on the circumstance involved.

So it wouldn't automatically be evil? What "circumstances" would render such an act evil? What if taking back what is yours was for the good and protection of others and not for personal profit?

[Bust Nak]

How will you be assess an act that hasn't been committed yet as evil when you are dead?

Something along the lines of, "if such and such then it is evil." I don't need to be alive for acts to fall into the "such and such" conditional clause.

And are acts that you don't know about evil (given the variants we have only touched the surface of here)?

Yes, if they still fall into categories that I deemed evil.

More importantly, should others accept your assessment of what is evil and if so, why?

Should they, you ask? Yes, of course they should, because I says so. I am the one who decide morality, i.e. what should and should not be done, remember?

Whether they would or not, now that's a separate question.

Do you have omniscient powers that would make your retrospecitve and preemptive decisions anything more than sterile rhetoric?

I don't need omniscient power for that, all I need is logic plus the premise that morality is subjective.

So [taking back what is yours, given on condition] wouldn't automatically be evil? What "circumstances" would render such an act evil?

For example, when a bank repossesses a home, when a more compassionate alternative can recuperate the loan.

What if taking back what is yours was for the good and protection of others and not for personal profit?

Then that's okay.

[JehovahsWitness]

More importantly, should others accept your assessment of what is evil and if so, why?

Should they, you ask? Yes, of course they should, because I says so. I am the one who decide morality, i.e. what should and should not be done, remember?

Upon what authority does your say so carry weight? Why "should" your assessment of what qualifies as good and evil be the ultimate authority for all? By virtue of your Omniscient powers? Because you are never wrong? Because of the proven recordsof every decision you every made has always been for the universal good of all living things past present and furture? Or is it because you are the source of life and the individual that gave us our sense of morals and justice in the first place?



JW

JOB 38: 3,4
Brace yourself, please, like a man; I will question you, and you inform me.
4 Where were you when I founded the earth? Tell me, if you think you understand.

[Danmark]

So who owns and created the planet himself?

I find this argument to be morally repugnant. It convinces me of the total moral superiority of nontheism compared to the view that in YOUR house you can do whatever you want, especially to those you are responsible for bringing into this world.

I've been on this list five years and this is the clearest admission I've heard from a theist that the moral system they follow is so corrupt.

[bluethread]

I asked a question. You have not answered it. I ask again:

Do you claim that torturing the innocent, that killing babies, that rape and the other things listed, are NOT evil? When you answer this, we can move forward

You stated that is the definition of evil. If that is the case, then, of course, the answer would be yes. However, if that is the case, then a majority of the animal kingdom is evil. Is that what you believe? If not then that definition needs to be modified a bit.

[Willum]

[Replying to post 139 by bluethread]

So your rationale is: The majority of the animal kingdom is evil, therefore God is not?
Or perhaps: Animals don't know better, therefore God does not know better?
Or perhaps you mean to argue: Animals do wicked things in order to survive, therefore it OK when God does wicked things?

Or do you have a different point?