North Korea

[2ndRateMind]

So, North Korea is on the verge of uniting a thermo-nuclear warhead with an inter-continental ballistic missile system. When it does this, it will be entirely capable of levelling any given American city, and maybe several of them.

And North Korea is not a friend of America.

When it is so capable, it is likely to act. Not with an initial pre-emptive strike, but at the very least with nuclear blackmail: 'Remove your troops from South Korea, or Dallas gets it!' 'Remove your troops from Japan, or New York gets it!'

Of course, America has anti-missile missiles, but it would be foolish to rely on a 100% rate of effectiveness. And it would only take 1 missile to get through to devastate a city, which would mean a death toll in the millions, a huge disruption of the economy, and incalculable damage to the environment.

It seems that the time for action has arrived. But what should that action be? What would Jesus do?

Best wishes, 2RM.

[Divine Insight]

What would Jesus do?

Turn the other cheek.

Should we attack other nations simply because we fear what they "might" do?

Isn't that a philosophy based on paranoia?

Has North Korea ever actually threatened to drop a nuclear bomb on anyone?

I don't think so.

Their position is that they simply want to be recognized as an equal power. That is what they have been claiming. They want to be recognized as having equal power to the USA.

Also, is military might a "righteous" claim to power? Or is it bullying?

If we attack North Korea simply because we don't want them to become as powerful military as we are, then doesn't that make us the the most dangerous world threat?

All that would mean is that we are willing to kill anyone who even dares to become as powerful as we are.

In other words, we become precisely what we are accusing North Korea of being.

We become a totally irresponsible world threat. A bully nation who will blow up any nation who dares to try to become as militarily powerful as we are.

To the North Koreans, the USA is the world bully who is prepared to wipe out any nation that disagrees with the USA.

And aren't their right?

How can anyone say they are wrong?

Who is the USA that they get to determine who has nukes and who doesn't?

Especially when the USA is currently holding the most massive nuclear arsenal on earth.

Are we the nuclear bullies?

If we end up blowing NK off the face of the earth, then we certainly are.

We become the evil demons that we accused the North Koreans of being.

What would Jesus do?

Turn the other cheek.

Would North Korea drop a nuke on Jesus then?

Perhaps so, but what good would it do? Jesus lives forever remember?

And any Christians who truly believe in Jesus should believe that they are going to live forever as well.

So Christians in particular should be saying to North Korea, 'Go ahead and nuke us. You can't kill us because we have Jesus'.

In fact, shouldn't Christians rather be with Jesus anyway? Christians should be praying that North Korea nukes us so we can all die and go to haven.

[2ndRateMind]

[Replying to post 2 by Divine Insight]

Hmmm. I'm not an American, but even I'm inclined to the view that US Americans are somewhat more civilised than the Kim dynastic regime. America has had nukes since 1945, and only ever dropped nuclear bombs to bring an end to a war, thereby saving countless lives. Kim Jong Un wants nukes to prop up a murderous dictatorship, and if he sees profit in it for himself, won't hesitate to use them to start a war. America is a democracy, accountable to it's people. North Korea is a rogue state with a ruthless, callous, brutal leader, accountable to no one. I really think we need consider very carefully before we decide that we can tolerate the DPRK as a nuclear armed state.

As for turning the other cheek, while that might be most excellent advice in respect of individual, personal relationships, I think it does not apply in the sphere of international real-politik, where there is tension between good and evil on a national scale, and legitimate politicians are elected and paid to serve the best interests of their respective populations. Otherwise, we Christians would simply be annihilated amid the quest for power and wealth amongst godless nations. And, I dare say, that would be a shame.

Best wishes, 2RM.

[DanieltheDragon]

[Replying to post 1 by 2ndRateMind]

North Korea is not going to attack America, neither is Iran, or Any other would be nuclear power. They develop these systems largely to have a MAD defense. This is the consequence of the Cold War. What you don't know is NK has quite a few subs. Subs don't need to be 6Km away to launch a nuke. ICBMs are not the most cost effective or most effective method of nuclear delivery. Your limited by both payload and relative cost.

NK might not be friendly to the US but that is a matter of internal politics rather than global. Missile tests are political moves as a show of force to the people. In a sense, "look at me I am not afraid of the US".

So what should the US do? Nothing aside from sanctions there is no reason to start a nuclear war. This is precisely why a blowhard like trump will do nothing as well.

[Divine Insight]

Hmmm. I'm not an American, but even I'm inclined to the view that US Americans are somewhat more civilised than the Kim dynastic regime. America has had nukes since 1945, and only ever dropped nuclear bombs to bring an end to a war, thereby saving countless lives. Kim Jong Un wants nukes to prop up a murderous dictatorship, and if he sees profit in it for himself, won't hesitate to use them to start a war.

And when did Kim Jong Un drop a nuke on anyone?

Are you really suggesting that fear of what you think someone might be capable of is sufficient to annihilate them?

America is a democracy, accountable to it's people.

That used to be true. Yes.

North Korea is a rogue state with a ruthless, callous, brutal leader, accountable to no one.

Unfortunately this has recently become the current situation in America too.

I really think we need consider very carefully before we decide that we can tolerate the DPRK as a nuclear armed state.

Americans should have thought more carefully before they allowed DJT to become the commander-in-chief of a nuclear nation.

Donald Trump is accountable to no one. This should be crystal clear to anyone who is paying attention. He doesn't care what anyone thinks, including the American people.

As for turning the other cheek, while that might be most excellent advice in respect of individual, personal relationships, I think it does not apply in the sphere of international real-politik, where there is tension between good and evil on a national scale, and legitimate politicians are elected and paid to serve the best interests of their respective populations.

Too bad Jesus and Yahweh didn't address these more important issues huh?

Otherwise, we Christians would simply be annihilated amid the quest for power and wealth amongst godless nations. And, I dare say, that would be a shame.

Best wishes, 2RM.

Are you kidding me?

So do you consider Donald Trump to be a Christian? Or representative of Christ in any way?

Do you consider all the money-hungry billionaires he appointed to his cabinet to be representative of Christ and/or Christians?

I personally don't believe in Christianity, but if I did I would be absolutely certain that Donald Trump is the anti-Christ and the USA has become an evil nation under him.

America is currently being run by a madman that is at lease as evil as Kim Jong Un, yet Donald Trump already has a huge nuclear arsenal that he cab unleash in seconds.

If you have any fear of a nuclear threat, Donald Trump is the one to fear, not Kim Jong Un.

[2ndRateMind]

[Replying to post 5 by Divine Insight]

I have absolutely no intention of defending Trump. I can't stand the man or anything he stands for. The sooner he is gone the better for everyone. The best that can be said of him is that he is likely to bring Republican Party prospects down with him.

Nevertheless, there are those famous checks and balances built into the American Constitution, and he does have to face election again in three years time, if he wants to stay in power.

There are no such constraints on Kim Jong Un, a man who simply murders any possible opposition in his own country, and has even organised the assassination of his own brother. Do not think he has any respect for anyone or anything beyond his own interests, or that he will hesitate for one moment to use nukes, or trade them with other unsavoury and/or terrorist regimes, or blackmail with them, once he has them, if he decides that would be to his own advantage.

Facile moral equivalences drawn between the DPRK and the USA are invidious, disengenuous and politically naïve.

Best wishes, 2RM.

[2ndRateMind]

And when did Kim Jong Un drop a nuke on anyone?

Ummm. That is the point of this thread. Up to now, he hasn't had nukes. So he has naturally not been in a position to exploit them. But he has been utterly determined to get hold of them, and that's not just because he likes to play soldiers.

Are you really suggesting that fear of what you think someone might be capable of is sufficient to annihilate them?

No, I don't think I have ever suggested that. What makes you think I would suggest or support such a course of action?

Best wishes, 2RM.

[2ndRateMind]

So do you consider Donald Trump to be a Christian? Or representative of Christ in any way?

Do you consider all the money-hungry billionaires he appointed to his cabinet to be representative of Christ and/or Christians?

Actually, I think you have a good point, well made.

The truth is though, Trump seems to consider himself a Christian. Maybe because that's politically advantageous, or maybe because he really does have some degree of belief. Whatever, I consider anyone who considers themselves to be a Christian to be a Christian.

We may not all be good Christians, in fact, some of us may be very bad Christians indeed, but the faith is a journey, not a destination. And naturally, we are all at different stages on that journey, and moving onwards and upwards at different rates.

Best wishes, 2RM.

[2ndRateMind]

Hmmm. Seems both Russia and China are quite happy for North Korea to have the means to nuke American cities. Surprise, surprise.

Best wishes, 2RM.

[Divine Insight]

There are no such constraints on Kim Jong Un, a man who simply murders any possible opposition in his own country, and has even organised the assassination of his own brother. Do not think he has any respect for anyone or anything beyond his own interests, or that he will hesitate for one moment to use nukes, or trade them with other unsavoury and/or terrorist regimes, or blackmail with them, once he has them, if he decides that would be to his own advantage.

It's my understanding that all Kim Jong Un has ever proclaimed is that he wants to be recognized as an equal power in the modern world. I don't believe that he has ever actually threatened to drop a nuke on anyone.

So once again, I have to ask, "Is fear of what we think someone might do justification for attacking them?"

In other words, is paranoia a good policy? Especially when our president has already threatened to annihilate NK?

Facile moral equivalences drawn between the DPRK and the USA are invidious, disengenuous and politically naïve.

Are you confident in that? Didn't Trump threaten to annihilate NK in his UN speech?

And don't forget, as far as the world is concerned Donald Trump is the USA right now. It doesn't matter that 2/3's of Americans are totally embarrassed by his immoral behavior. He's the commander in chief and could launch a nuclear attack anytime he wants. Americans could do nothing more than watch it unfold on the news.

Does that represent America's morality?

You might argue that there are "checks and balances". The problem is that in reality they don't work. Trump could launch a nuclear attack on NK claiming that this action was done in the name of national security.

At best, AFTER THE FACT, congress could complain that Trump didn't do through the correct channels. Even that would end up becoming controversial without any crystal clear legal resolution.

Trump would be claiming that he did it because he felt it was important for the security of the homeland.

Congress would be arguing that he shouldn't have started a war without the approval of congress.

In the meantime the war is underway!

And all the arguing takes place AFTER THE FACT.

So much for "checks and balances".

And all the while Trump appeals to his base proclaiming that the whole legal argument is political because those wishy-washy Democrats are too afraid to deal with North Korea.

I'm serious. I mean, I don't know if this will actually happen (hopefully not!), but with the way Trump as been acting thus far this is precisely the way he does things. He just does them and then argues about it later calling everyone who says anything against him names or "fake news".

The USA is being run by a seriously dangerous person right now. Americans are being held hostage by him, and the rest of the world is in grave danger because of him.

I think it's quite astonishing. The USA has the greatest military in the world yet our democracy can't even protect us from being taken over from within by an absolute moron.

We are totally defenseless from within. Now we have an immoral moron as the commander-in-chief of our military!