JESUS IS NOT YHWH

[onewithhim]

Jesus prayed to YHWH, the Father, not to himself. (E.g., Matthew 26:39,42; John 11:41,42; John 17:1-26.) Would he have been praying to himself?

He continually referred to himself as "God's SON," not YHWH Himself. (John 5:19; John 8:28,29; John 10:36; John 17:1.) Even the Jews who hated him recognized that fact (John 19:7). Can he be his own Son?

He applied Isaiah 61:1,2 to himself, at Luke 4:17-21, showing that he was the one anointed BY YHWH, and sent BY YHWH. There are incontrovertibly two Persons mentioned in the passage, and YHWH is the One calling the shots. The anointed one does what YHWH wants. How could they be the same Person?

Psalm 110 is also applied to Jesus at Acts 2:34,35. He is the "Lord," or Messiah, that YHWH speaks to. Was YHWH talking to Himself?


I think that just these few points would show plainly that Jesus is not YHWH. Can anyone explain how THESE REFERENCES, ABOVE, can possibly agree with the premise that Jesus is YHWH? I'm not asking for other Scriptures to be brought in without commenting ON the verses I am asking about. Please give me your reasoning concerning these particular Scriptures. Thank you.

[onewithhim]

[Replying to post 293 by Danmark]

You will jump on my reply like a wayward entity, but I want to say, regardless, that your views of the scriptures you referred to are warped by a very negative attitude about God to begin with. Someone would, for example, if they respected God, see the fact that Jehovah allowed Satan to test Job as a wise decision, so that the universe could finally see that Satan's accusations about Job and about all of mankind are unfounded. If Jehovah didn't allow Satan to try and prove his point, there would always be a question as to what if he was right? Angels and men would always wonder whether or not mankind could rule itself successfully without God. We have had over 6,000 years now to see for ourselves if we could do that.

The other examples you gave betray your contempt for God. That contempt colors everything you have to say about God.

If anyone wants a different slant on things, I would recommend going to Jehovah's own website and researching those verses that you quote to show what an ogre Jehovah is. www.jw.org

[onewithhim]

God allows the torture of a good man to win a bet:

God destroys the fetuses of those who do not worship him

God approves the massacre of a peaceful people so one of his tribes could have a place to live:
Babies are slaughtered and wives raped

A daughter is burned as an acceptable sacrifice to God

The cannibalistic God makes people eat human flesh.


Perhaps the worst, along with God telling Abraham to kill his son,
God wants you to be happy to dash babies against the rocks:
"Happy shall they be who takes your little ones and dashes them against the rock!"(Psalm 137:8"9 NRSV)

It is impossible to read this and not despise the OT monster and the minds of those who created it.
Miraculous is the manner in which people hear and see no evil in the above which surely vies with anything wicked that the worst of men have ever done. His Quranic cousin, born of the same tales, is no better.

God destroys a "peaceful people"?? The Canaanites were anything but peaceful. They worshiped pagan gods by burning up their children as sacrifices to them. Why should God's people have to live in the same vicinity with them?

Where does it say that the Israelites raped women?

You misunderstand the account of Jephtha's daughter. She was not burned up as a sacrifice to Jehovah. Read the account closely and you will see that she was alive for many years, the women of Israel visiting her yearly. She was a "sacrifice" in that she gave up her chance to have a husband and children, and she stayed at the temple to do service there. You see, your attitude eclipses the true meaning of things.

Where does God "make people eat human flesh"?

That verse you quote about little ones being dashed against rocks was twisted by you. Jehovah said that the conquering hordes that came against the nation would be happy because they murdered even the babies. It wasn't something that would make God happy or anyone that He supported.

You folks can be just as disgusted with Jehovah as you wish. He will not force you to be friends with Him.

[Danmark]

God allows the torture of a good man to win a bet:

God destroys the fetuses of those who do not worship him

God approves the massacre of a peaceful people so one of his tribes could have a place to live:
Babies are slaughtered and wives raped

A daughter is burned as an acceptable sacrifice to God

The cannibalistic God makes people eat human flesh.


Perhaps the worst, along with God telling Abraham to kill his son,
God wants you to be happy to dash babies against the rocks:
"Happy shall they be who takes your little ones and dashes them against the rock!"(Psalm 137:8"9 NRSV)

It is impossible to read this and not despise the OT monster and the minds of those who created it.
Miraculous is the manner in which people hear and see no evil in the above which surely vies with anything wicked that the worst of men have ever done. His Quranic cousin, born of the same tales, is no better.

God destroys a "peaceful people"?? The Canaanites were anything but peaceful. They worshiped pagan gods by burning up their children as sacrifices to them. Why should God's people have to live in the same vicinity with them?

The Hebrews were also a violent people. Certainly not 'peaceful.' From the POV of a different tribal religion, the HEBREWS were the 'pagans.'

I do not know why it is so difficult for believers to 'get' that the Hebrews or Judaism in Biblical times, was absolutely tribal, not universal. It seems absurd to me to simply accept one tribe's version of its tribe-serving religion as THE One True Faith.

For me this fact, the ethnocentrism of tribal religions, is so obvious I fail to see how anyone can disagree. If one does not see this easily, no amount of evidence based argument will change anyone's mind.

[marco]

You contradict yourself, sir. You say that Christ is Jehovah (Yahweh) but then you say that Christ is not equal to Him. I don't understand that. You are correct, though, when you say that Christ came to reveal the Father. (John 1:18)

The Trinity is an attempt to retain monotheism and to do so it has to be admitted that we are lost in the logic. It is supposed to be a mystery, a revealed truth, impenetrable to human understanding. So when you say you don't understand, you are not meant to.

If one runs along with the idea that Jesus is God, then it is illogical to make him lesser than the father as opposed to his co-equal. Of course one can regard Jesus as an aspect of God, incarnated in an act of love. Or one can regard Jesus as of exceptional holiness, chosen by Jehovah to preach what is for some the Good News. What we take that Good news to be depends on which religious group we belong to.

Best regards

[EBA]

You contradict yourself, sir. You say that Christ is Jehovah (Yahweh) but then you say that Christ is not equal to Him. I don't understand that.

Hi onewithhim.

That's because you assume that Yahweh is Christ's Father.

You are correct, though, when you say that Christ came to reveal the Father. (John 1:18)

True. Most believe the Father revealed himself all throughout the Old Testament, but no, it has always been Christ.

Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. (Joh 14:6)

Of course, many believe the patriarchs and prophets bypassed Christ and went straight to the Father. In fact many today believe the very same thing.

I do hope you realize that Christ is our Father.

[EBA]

Jesus and his Father are "one" in that they are in agreement. It's like I might say that my sister and I are "one" because we agree, we are of the same mind so to speak. I'm sure you have heard those expressions before.

I have heard that expression.

It is clear that Jesus meant that he and his Father were in union together, being in agreement, because he said the same thing about his disciples. At John 17:21-23 he prayed to the Father that "they may all be one, just as you, Father, are in union with me and I am in union with you, that they may also be in union with us."

I'm afraid it's not quite that simple. Christ came out from the Father, he is the Word of God:

For the Father himself loveth you, because ye have loved me, and have believed that I came out from God. (Joh 16:27)

And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. (Rev 19:13)

If being "one" with the Father means that we ARE the Father or that we are God, then the disciples are also God.

Well, you ought to continue on with that thinking. I pray Christ is opening your eyes to that marvelous truth.

For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church:
For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.
For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto
his wife, and they two shall be one flesh. (Eph 5:29-31)

Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more.
Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. (2Co 5:16-17)

There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
One Lord, one faith, one baptism, One God and Father of all, who is above all (including Christ) , and through all, and in you all. (Eph 4:4-6)

God Bless!

[onewithhim]

God allows the torture of a good man to win a bet:

God destroys the fetuses of those who do not worship him

God approves the massacre of a peaceful people so one of his tribes could have a place to live:
Babies are slaughtered and wives raped

A daughter is burned as an acceptable sacrifice to God

The cannibalistic God makes people eat human flesh.


Perhaps the worst, along with God telling Abraham to kill his son,
God wants you to be happy to dash babies against the rocks:
"Happy shall they be who takes your little ones and dashes them against the rock!"(Psalm 137:8"9 NRSV)

It is impossible to read this and not despise the OT monster and the minds of those who created it.
Miraculous is the manner in which people hear and see no evil in the above which surely vies with anything wicked that the worst of men have ever done. His Quranic cousin, born of the same tales, is no better.

God destroys a "peaceful people"?? The Canaanites were anything but peaceful. They worshiped pagan gods by burning up their children as sacrifices to them. Why should God's people have to live in the same vicinity with them?

The Hebrews were also a violent people. Certainly not 'peaceful.' From the POV of a different tribal religion, the HEBREWS were the 'pagans.'

I do not know why it is so difficult for believers to 'get' that the Hebrews or Judaism in Biblical times, was absolutely tribal, not universal. It seems absurd to me to simply accept one tribe's version of its tribe-serving religion as THE One True Faith.

For me this fact, the ethnocentrism of tribal religions, is so obvious I fail to see how anyone can disagree. If one does not see this easily, no amount of evidence based argument will change anyone's mind.

I am a God-loving Christian, and that is because I have read the Bible and I believe it is the inspired Word of God. All 66 books. That is why I accept the idea that the faithful people from Abel on up to the nation of Israel were practicing THE One True Faith. The Bible is what any of our arguments should be based upon, if we claim to believe in God.

Having said that, of course I know that Israel disobeyed over and over again and worshiped the pagan gods of the nations as time went on. But the religion of their forefathers was the truth, even though they ignored it. The Israelites that came out of Egypt were not violent. They became war-like only because the ruthless pagan Canaanites would not concede to the Israelites' wishes to move somewhere else. The Bible says that before any onslaught the cities would be warned. Jehovah had said that the land would be Israel's, and that is where the Messiah would be born.

[onewithhim]

You contradict yourself, sir. You say that Christ is Jehovah (Yahweh) but then you say that Christ is not equal to Him. I don't understand that.

Hi onewithhim.

That's because you assume that Yahweh is Christ's Father.

You are correct, though, when you say that Christ came to reveal the Father. (John 1:18)

True. Most believe the Father revealed himself all throughout the Old Testament, but no, it has always been Christ.

Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. (Joh 14:6)

Of course, many believe the patriarchs and prophets bypassed Christ and went straight to the Father. In fact many today believe the very same thing.

I do hope you realize that Christ is our Father.

I do not get that Jesus is the Father from John 14:6. He said that he was the means by which someone could come to the Father, not that he was the Father.

The patriarchs and prophets did not bypass Christ. He is evident throughout the Hebrew Scriptures. He has always been the spokesman for the Father. That's why he is referred to as "the Word."

[onewithhim]

Jesus and his Father are "one" in that they are in agreement. It's like I might say that my sister and I are "one" because we agree, we are of the same mind so to speak. I'm sure you have heard those expressions before.

I have heard that expression.

It is clear that Jesus meant that he and his Father were in union together, being in agreement, because he said the same thing about his disciples. At John 17:21-23 he prayed to the Father that "they may all be one, just as you, Father, are in union with me and I am in union with you, that they may also be in union with us."

I'm afraid it's not quite that simple. Christ came out from the Father, he is the Word of God:

For the Father himself loveth you, because ye have loved me, and have believed that I came out from God. (Joh 16:27)

And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. (Rev 19:13)

If being "one" with the Father means that we ARE the Father or that we are God, then the disciples are also God.

Well, you ought to continue on with that thinking. I pray Christ is opening your eyes to that marvelous truth.

For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church:
For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.
For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto
his wife, and they two shall be one flesh. (Eph 5:29-31)

Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more.
Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. (2Co 5:16-17)

There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
One Lord, one faith, one baptism, One God and Father of all, who is above all (including Christ) , and through all, and in you all. (Eph 4:4-6)

God Bless!

None of that is saying that we can be God. That is, Jehovah, the Most High, of whom Jesus said the He was even the God of himself. Jehovah, the Father, is Jesus' God. No one is or can be Jehovah, Jesus' God and Father.

"Jesus saith unto her [Mary], Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father; and to my God, and your God." (John 20:17, KJV)

[EBA]

I do not get that Jesus is the Father from John 14:6. He said that he was the means by which someone could come to the Father, not that he was the Father.

In agree, however, you need to be careful with your words:

You say: "He said that he was the means by which someone could come to the Father"

And that's not what he said. What he said was: "no man cometh unto the Father, but by me." (John 14:6)

"[N]o man" would include the patriarchs and the prophets; They thought they were speaking and seeing the Father when, in scriptural fact, they were dealing with Christ.

And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice AT ANY TIME, nor seen his shape.
And ye have not his word abiding in you: for whom he hath sent, him ye believe not.
Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me. (Joh 5:37-39)

Christ came to REVEAL the Father:

All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him. (Mat 11:27)

The patriarchs and prophets did not bypass Christ.

I'm gald to her you say that.

He is evident throughout the Hebrew Scriptures.

Re-read John 5:39, The scriptures are ALL about Christ.

He has always been the spokesman for the Father. That's why he is referred to as "the Word."

Not referred to but "NAMED"; he is "THE WORD OF GOD."

And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. (Rev 19:13)

What I said earlier was: "I do hope you realize that Christ is our Father."

That was not to insinuate that Christ is "the Father" but that he is our Father. Christ's Father is greater than Christ as the scriptures prove.

Peace.