Does God want everyone to believe in him?

[Justin108]

Does God want everyone to believe in him?

[Justin108]

Ok can you perhaps try to actually form a rational argument and not just base your argument on a quote from the Bible?

Will you form a rational argument from the Bible without reference to secular material scientism or do you demand control over the playing field condemning spirit based ideas as prima facie irrational?

Will I form a rational argument about what?

or do you demand control over the playing field condemning spirit based ideas as prima facie irrational?

My, my... How ironic. Aren't you normally the one to throw tantrums whenever someone suggests you said something you never did? When did I claim that spirit based ideas are prima facie irrational? The only ideas I condemn as prima facie irrational are ideas not based on reason.

[For_The_Kingdom]

You realize something can be a threat and a promise at the same time, right? If I promise to shoot you in the face, I'm still making a threat. It's still a threat.

Fine, we can put it that way, too.

And if God does exist, then he's threatening us with hell...

Dude, hell is a punishment...so sure, God is threatening us with a punishment..the same way we are "threatened" with the death penalty should we commit certain crimes.

Or you are threatened with a spanking by your parents if you do/don't commit certain acts. Same concept.

So by your own logic, the only way for God to avoid accountability for making threats is if he doesn't exist. You played yourself. Good job.

Played myself? LOLLLL.

Either
1. God exists (and makes threats)
2. Or he does not exist

Which is it? 1 or 2?

I am not convinced that "making threats" is incompatible with anything...so I don't see this "grand" of a point you think you are making. And besides, if God doesn't exist (as you claim), then need not worry about threats that are impossible to make good on.

[Justin108]

Dude, hell is a punishment...so sure, God is threatening us with a punishment..the same way we are "threatened" with the death penalty should we commit certain crimes.

A punishment for what? What did I do that deserves endless suffering?

Or you are threatened with a spanking by your parents if you do/don't commit certain acts. Same concept.

Hell is a bit more than a "spanking" wouldn't you say? A better analogy would be setting my child on fire if they do/don't commit certain acts.

Played myself? LOLLLL.

Laugh out loud... loud loud loud? Ok sure.

Either
1. God exists (and makes threats)
2. Or he does not exist

Which is it? 1 or 2?

I am not convinced that "making threats" is incompatible with anything...so I don't see this "grand" of a point you think you are making.

Oh my mistake. Of course I need to explain everything to you in detail. The point I am making is that you vehemently deny the fact that God is making threats. My point is, if he exists, he is making threats.

And besides, if God doesn't exist (as you claim)

When did I make this claim? Please be so kind and quote me.

[For_The_Kingdom]

I'm not familiar with the Resurrection argument. How does one go about showing this?

These debates are from guys that are leaders in fields of theology and history...and they are among the popular debates that you can find online on this subject.

To be honest, unless you have an invested interest in the subject, you may find these debates to be a snooze-fest. But since you asked, here you go..

William Lane Craig vs Bart Erhman


William Lane Craig vs Richard Carrier


Richard Carrier vs Mike Licona


I also recommend Lee Strobel's books..in case you aren't familiar with them/him.

The Case for Christ
The Case for a Creator

In each of these books (there are more, too), Lee Strobel, is playing the role of an "investigative journalist", which, in real life, he was...and he is going around the country interviewing all of these experts in the fields of biology (Jonathan Wells), biochemistry (Stephen Meyers), Consciousness (J.P. Moreland), Cosmology (William Lane Craig), and others, in The Case for a Creator.

He did the same thing in The Case for Christ...

Basically, he interviews those guys, asking them tough questions and playing devils advocate. Those are both interesting reads.

[For_The_Kingdom]

A punishment for what? What did I do that deserves endless suffering?

Bro, you asked a question, and I can't give you the answer that you "want" to hear, I can only give you the answer according to Christian theology and God's word. It goes a little something like this (I'm sure you've heard most of it before).

We are all sinners, according to Christianity. God is the ultimate source of goodness, so when you sin, you are committing an act against him. When you sin, you are going against all-righteousness.

Now, sin is disgusting to God...it is despicable...and he cannot tolerate it..so therefore, we you sin, you separate yourself from him, ultimately. Also, when you sin, you deserve to be punished...you deserve death...because the wages of sin is death. Death is the penalty for sin...and I am not talking about just physical death, either...but spiritual death, which is separation from God. When you sin against an eternal God, you deserve eternal punishment.

However, since God loves us and is merciful, he was gracious enough to implement an atonement system for the Jews. So that when they sinned, they were required to sacrifice animals for their sins? Why animals? Well, the animals were symbolic...so that when the animal was slaughtered, the idea behind it is "This should be you..this animal is being killed in place of you."

So as the animal is screeching in pain, the sinner can think "Holy crap, that could be me laying there in agonizing pain right now". That was the idea, the concept. The animal is suffering so that you won't have to...that would make a person think twice about sinning.

Of course there is more to it than just that (if your read the OT)...but that is the gist of it.

Now, during Jesus' ministry...God/Jesus choose to deal with his people differently than he did in the past...there was a new system...a new covenant in play...now, Jesus is the sacrifice for our sins...Jesus was the "animal" screeching in pain as he was being beaten, tortured, and ultimately killed. That is why he is called the "Lamb" (John 1:29)...when John the Baptist called Jesus the "Lamb of God".

What does that mean? That mean that Jesus is God's "lamb" that is being is offered to us for our sins against him.

This harmonizes with what Job did...and how he would rise every morning and offer burnt sacrifices to God for his children, JUST IN CASE his children sinned (Job 1:5)...he offered sacrifices to God on behalf of his children, because of his love for them..just like God offered his Son, his Lamb on behalf of us, because he loves us.

So, to answer your question...we (not just you) deserve eternal suffering for offending an eternal God and refusing to accept his Lamb as a reconciliation for our sins.

You think you are good? Well, you are not good enough. I am not good enough. No one is good enough to be able to stand before God on that day and say "God, I was/am blameless". We are all sinners, we all deserve death (separation from God). However, (John 3:16).

All you have to do..is BELIEVE.

Hell is a bit more than a "spanking" wouldn't you say?

A better analogy would be setting my child on fire if they do/don't commit certain acts.

I can think of reasons to set my adult child on fire for committing certain acts. I sure can.

Laugh out loud... loud loud loud? Ok sure.

I will use an exclamation point the next time...perhaps maybe that will suit your fancy better.

Oh my mistake. Of course I need to explain everything to you in detail. The point I am making is that you vehemently deny the fact that God is making threats. My point is, if he exists, he is making threats.

Ok, I acknowledge that point when I said "we can put it that way, too". However you want to put it.

When did I make this claim? Please be so kind and quote me.

Oh my bad. I shouldn't have assumed that people who argue with me every day about the existence of God and are members of usergroups such as "Atheists", actually believe in God.

[For_The_Kingdom]

Yes, riku defeated you.
Up, down, forwards, backwards, from your own point of view and his own

What bugs him and I, I am sure, is: You can't see it:

LOL. Okey Dokey.

Neither the Bible nor science support your beliefs, yet you manage to warp both of them to fit your beliefs.

Not at all. I let the Bible/Science speak for themselves.

Your beliefs DO NOT fit either the Bible, except in the most jingoistic ways, nor modern science, but somehow you manage to mis-interpret and deny both, and come up with a religious view.

I go where the evidence takes me.

Even your arguments: You do not seem to understand that if you mix two logical arguments, their assumptions are mixed as well.

SMH.

When defeated you change the subject.

Let's examine the behavior, and see if it is characteristic of a being of truth or lies, love or confusion.

?

[ttruscott]

Hence the coercion

Riiiight - GOD coerces everyone yet billions are not cerced. Is your foot hurting?

[Justin108]

A punishment for what? What did I do that deserves endless suffering?

We are all sinners, according to Christianity. God is the ultimate source of goodness, so when you sin, you are committing an act against him. When you sin, you are going against all-righteousness.

I get that, but why does it deserve eternal punishment? Again, this is like setting your child on fire for disobeying you. Except, unlike burning to death, hell is an endless suffering. Would you think a parent who sets his children on fire is evil? Or would you just assume the children deserve it?

Now, sin is disgusting to God...it is despicable...and he cannot tolerate it..so therefore, we you sin, you separate yourself from him, ultimately.

That still doesn't justify torture. If my kids ran away from home (i.e separated themselves from me), I wouldn't set them on fire the moment I catch up with them.

Also, when you sin, you deserve to be punished

I get that. But why am I eternally punished? I mean the average person's biggest sins are usually things like lying, watching porn and maybe stealing ice cream from the freezer while mom isn't looking. But does that really deserve eternal punishment? Would you be perfectly fine with it if you heard that North Korea was imprisoning and torturing people and then sentencing them to death for watching porn?

...you deserve death...because the wages of sin is death.

Oh is that so? So if someone were to be sentenced to death for stealing a chocolate bar from the candy shop, you would be ok with that? I mean death is the accepted punishment for sin after all, and theft is a sin.

However, since God loves us and is merciful, he was gracious enough to implement an atonement system for the Jews.

If God was merciful, he wouldn't have made the wage for sin death to begin with. Basically, God made a law that sentences people to death for sinning, and then he invented a loophole for his own law to have us wiggle out of that sentence. Why would he do that? If he wasn't happy with the wages for sin being death, then why did he instate that to begin with?

So that when they sinned, they were required to sacrifice animals for their sins? Why animals? Well, the animals were symbolic...so that when the animal was slaughtered, the idea behind it is "This should be you..this animal is being killed in place of you."

Wait I thought we are being eternally punished, not just dying a physical death. Why then give the animal a physical death? Does the animal suffer eternally as well? We already get a physical death regardless, so what's the point of the animal?

So as the animal is screeching in pain, the sinner can think "Holy crap, that could be me laying there in agonizing pain right now".

Wait... so God is torturing innocent animals as a threat to us? How sociopathic is he? If a mother tortured the family pet and said "this will be you if you don't clean your room right now!", you wouldn't find anything wrong with that? You don't think this woman should be locked up in an insane asylum and have her kids taken away from her?

Now, during Jesus' ministry...God/Jesus choose to deal with his people differently than he did in the past...there was a new system...a new covenant in play...

Why was there a need for a new covenant? What's wrong with the old one?

now, Jesus is the sacrifice for our sins...Jesus was the "animal" screeching in pain as he was being beaten, tortured, and ultimately killed.

So God had his own son tortured... as a warning for us? Wow. It just gets worse and worse. But God is love you guys, am I right?

You think you are good? Well, you are not good enough.

Who's fault is that? No one on earth is good enough. Who then can be to blame if not our creator? If literally every iPhone was faulty and defective, wouldn't you be blaming Apple for it?

All you have to do..is BELIEVE.

Why is that necessary?

Hell is a bit more than a "spanking" wouldn't you say?

A better analogy would be setting my child on fire if they do/don't commit certain acts.

I can think of reasons to set my adult child on fire for committing certain acts. I sure can.

And what would those certain acts be? Can you give a few examples? And why did you specify adult child? Do children not go to hell?

Laugh out loud... loud loud loud? Ok sure.

I will use an exclamation point the next time...perhaps maybe that will suit your fancy better.

Yes that would be far more suitable. This isn't kindergarten.

When did I make this claim? Please be so kind and quote me.

Oh my bad. I shouldn't have assumed that people who argue with me every day about the existence of God and are members of usergroups such as "Atheists", actually believe in God.

What makes you think I believe in God?

[Justin108]

Hence the coercion

Riiiight - GOD coerces everyone yet billions are not cerced. Is your foot hurting?

Again, just because we didn't fall for the coercion doesn't mean it's not coercion. I have explained this time and time again. If you point a gun at me and told me to get out of the car, if I choose to hit the accelerator and get out of there, that doesn't change the fact that you coerced me. You failed, but you still coerced me.

[rikuoamero]

[Replying to post 64 by For_The_Kingdom]

I also recommend Lee Strobel's books..in case you aren't familiar with them/him.

The Case for Christ

I'm not familiar with the 'Creator' book, but I know well the 'Christ' book. It is riddled with logical fallacies. Such as when 'investigating' areas of thought that atheists typically hold...he asks the theists about it, and not actual atheists.

.and he is going around the country interviewing all of these experts

Okay...

Cosmology (William Lane Craig),

...WLC is a cosmologist? From his own website, ReasonableFaith, it lists him having academic degrees in communication, philosophy of religion, church history and theology.
Doesn't sound like the kind of guy who is an expert on the formation of galaxies...

Basically, he interviews those guys, asking them tough questions and playing devils advocate. Those are both interesting reads.

But he never actually 'asks' the 'devil', does he? If he's supposed to be studying the case for Christ or case for a creator, why not ask those who don't believe Christ/creator, and get their views in the book?