Would you sacrifice your own son like Abraham was ready to

[Jagella]

I was studying Hebrews 11 today which praises people of faith. Verses 17-19 of that chapter lauds Abraham's obedience to God as Abraham was ready to murder his own son Isaac. (The original grotesque tale appears in Genesis 22.)

Would you murder your own son if God asked you to?

Yes--Well, this answer speaks for itself.

No--Then you admit that your religion is immoral.

I think I have faith of my own that none of the Christians here will give a straight, honest answer to this question. You will stonewall and do everything you can to divert attention away from this issue. You know that your religion is immoral but will never admit it.

[Jagella]

[Replying to post 6 by ttruscott]

A square circle; a logical impossibility.

OK, if we agree to your assumption that God cannot murder, then obviously it would be wrong to say he murdered. But I don't agree to assuming that God cannot murder. Because of my freedom of thought I am at liberty to conclude that God, according to the tale in Genesis, conspired with Abraham to murder Isaac.

By the way, the story of Abraham intending to sacrifice Isaac is probably a myth, so I'm not alleging that there was any real act on Abraham's part to murder anybody.

Murder is against HIS law which HE would never break so this question has no meaning...

According to what I've read in the Bible, the law of Moses is only binding on the Hebrews. God is literally above that law. Many Christians like William Lane Craig say that God has the power of life and death meaning he can take any of us anytime for any reason, and no law is broken. I see this doctrine as dangerous because it opens the door for any nut to kill people if she or he believes God told her or him to do it.

And of course I would never murder anyone against GOD's law.

The "law" for Abraham was to do whatever God told him to do including murdering his own son.

The virtue you are so struggling to signal has no meaning without the giver of the moral law...

It has very clear meaning to me that it is wrong to kill our kids in the name of any god or for any other reason.

Well yeah.... the word murder says it all!!

Yes, I have called a spade a spade. I'm free to tell it like it is.

[Overcomer]

In that day and age, pagans sacrificed their children to gods in an attempt to appease them. Therefore, this wouldn't have seemed like a strange request to Abraham.

But God had no intention of having him sacrifice Isaac. He provided a ram to be sacrificed in the young man's place. This pre-figured the crucifixion of Jesus Christ who was sacrificed in OUR place.

What God was saying is this: You don't have to sacrifice your children for me. I will sacrifice my only-begotten son for you.

That's what makes Christianity different from every other religion out there. It's all about God providing salvation for us through Jesus, offering it to us as a gift given to those who receive it in faith. With other religions, it's all about trying to appease some far-off god with rites and rituals and deeds and following a bunch of man-made rules.

Re: God not changing. That means that his character does not change. It does not mean that he doesn't change the way he does things or how he interacts with people. He has the freedom to do that.

Wootah is correct. Given that the episode pre-figured Christ's sacrifice, and given the message that God was sending (You don't have to sacrifice your children to me because I am sacrificing my son for you), there is really no reason for God to make such a request today. So the question is moot.

[Willum]

[Replying to post 32 by Overcomer]

That's what makes Christianity different from every other religion out there. It's all about God providing salvation for us through Jesus, offering it to us as a gift given to those who receive it in faith. With other religions, it's all about trying to appease some far-off god with rites and rituals and deeds and following a bunch of man-made rules.

Yep, other religions don't throw mud on you, so they can call you dirty, and propose to clean you up. Other religions don't make you feel unworthy yourself, so some quasi-Freudian being can redeem you (but with rites and rituals, don't say you don't have rites and rituals).

That's what makes Christianity different from every other religion. Others propose to make you better, Christianity excuses your wrong doing by apologizing to a creature that not only can't be shown to exist, but levies the 'debt' of sin on you, that also can't be shown to exist.

Or as I am fond of saying:
You may believe man was born in sin,
and that is what you believe,
But I believe man was born awesome,
That is what I believe.

You respect my beliefs, I'll respect yours.

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 1 by Jagella]

Re: Would you sacrifice your own son like Abraham was ready to


Yes, absolutely. .

In the same circumstances as Abraham, I hope my faith would be as strong as his.

JW






RELATED POSTS

Abraham: The Father of all those having faith
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 184#852184

This is what terrifies me about religion. The thought that there are people such as yourself who desperately desire to kill, and the only thing stopping them is that at this moment they don't believe God has told them to do it...yet.

Your fears are you own and not open to debate. If you extrapolate from that that I "desperately desire to kill" and you are terrified, you will have to live in that terror. I can however sympathize with you, for if you feel you are surrounded by potential killers, held in check only by the believe that God hasn't yet commanded them to strike, standing in a crowd must be a particularly harrowing experience for you.



JW

[William]

[Replying to post 21 by marco]

I was simply reporting usage and meaning.

True that. The use of the idea of respect in relation to fearfulness is an erroneous one at that. It may offer the individual a false sense of being 'a good and faithful servant' to the diabolical idea of GOD dressed up in clothes of 'righteousness', but that is delusional.

[William]

There was zero possibility of Abraham killing his son.

One would have thought there was zeo possibility of pious Job losing his children, but there you go. For the reader of the story there is every possibility the boy will die else we are in pantomime mode. Quite regardless of the outcome, the order itself is wicked. "Kill your son!" is an evil suggestion and there is no defence for it.

Abraham is revered by those who would bomb us, and this story offers some justification: God can sometimes demand that we kill innocent people. It is best seen as a teaching lesson for nomadic people, struggling to decide on which god to pick. God can ask anything - so be ready to serve, like Abraham.

Incidentally, we overlook the fact that Abraham told Abraham; Abraham reported on Abraham; there is nothing to suppose that God was involved at all; we have a butual man displaying brutality, the man who sent his other son and his mistress away into the desert, at the instigation of his wife.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


The unknown story of Abe as seen from a wider worldview perspective.

Archangel Bob: "Ah oh..."

The Local GOD: [looking up from her news tablet] "'Ah oh' What?"

Archangel Bob: [looking down at his news tablet] "It's Abe..."

The Local GOD: [raises eyebrow] "What now?"

Archangel Bob: "It appears he had a dream last night and in it, YOU told him that he has to sacrifice Laughter.

The Local GOD: "That sounds serious."

Archangel Bob: "Ya think?"

The Local GOD: [Smiles]. How serious? Intervention level?


Archangel Bob: "More than likely. There may be no way around it."

The Local GOD: "Perhaps we should send Angel Bill?"

Archangel Bob: "Good choice."

Angel Bill: [appearing out of apparently nowhere] "Did someone mention my name?"

Archangel Bob: "Speak of the devil! We have an intervention task for you Angel Bill.

Angel Bill: "Well I am halfway through the process of redecorating my mansion - but I guess I can do with the distraction. What is it?"

The Local GOD: "It is rather a delicate problem so needs to be handled correctly."

Archangel Bob: "It concerns Abe. He had a dream in which he believes Local GOD ordered him to sacrifice Laughter."

Angel Bill: [rolling eyes] "Good lordy! - if it isn't one thing it's another!"

Archangel Bob: "True that. It is just something we have to deal with."

The Local GOD: "So, what suggestions do we have on best approach?"

Archangel Bob: [Looking down at his news tablet] Well it appear Abe has loaded the donkey, so whatever we come up with, we better do so quickly!."

The Local GOD: "He always was far too serious! Not that this isn't admirable, but this is taking things way too far."

Angel Bill: "What say I go right now and head him off at the pass, so to speak. I can command him to turn around and counsel him that he is mistaken in his belief that his GOD want's him to sacrifice Laughter."

Archangel Bob: "Not sure that this will do the trick. He has a couple of servants with him as well, so it will be difficult to get him on his own. If we try to counsel him in front of his servants, things might well go 'forbidden fruit' [pear] shaped"

The Local GOD: "Yes - I agree with your analysis Bob. I also think it more than likely that Abe will react negatively if Bill tells him he is mistaken and that it was only a normal run-of-the-mill dream. Abe is a man on a mission and has made up his mind. Any such intervention will potentially make things far worse. He would likely accuse Bill of being 'the Devil disguised as an Angel.'

Archangel Bob: "Yes. I see your point LG. This puts us between a rock and a hard place ."

[small period of thoughtful silence]

Angel Bill: [clears throat] "What if I were to intervene precisely as he is doing the deed, and stop him from doing so?"

[another small period of thoughtful silence]

The Local GOD: "Risky..."

Archangel Bob: "Very..."

Angel Bill: "Well how else can we handle this problem? Time is ticking..."

Archangel Bob: "The problem is that such intervention will likely have ripple effects which could be worse than not doing anything at all, and yet we have to do something.
Laughter is integral to the agenda."

The Local GOD: [looking at Bill] "So you propose physically preventing Abe from carrying out the deed...then what? How would you explain your actions to him?"

Angel Bill: "I would have to appeal to his ego. Tell him that his GOD only wanted to test his loyalty and commitment to the agenda and did not really actually want him to go through with the deed. It should be enough to sate Abe and get things back on track."

The Local GOD: "While that sounds well and good in theory, I don't see it unfolding well in the long run. It would of course deal with the immediate problem quite well...but I also think it will open a whole other bag of snakes we will have to deal with."

Archangel Bob: [Nods]

Angel Bill: "Well there is always a happenstance rock-slide so we can bury them all and start from scratch..."

Archangel Bob: "Have you been reading that old flood-story again? You know we don't like to operate that way."

Angel Bill: [shrugs]

The Local GOD: [Rubbing her eyes with hand] "It is bad for us, whichever way we go -
even when we decide to do nothing."

Archangel Bob: [Nods again]

[More thoughtful silence.]

The Local GOD: "All said and done, Bills suggestion seems to be the best option we do have."

Archangel Bob: "But LG!"

The Local GOD: "I know - I know Bob, but I think it is better to do something in this situation than nothing, and Angel Bill's suggestion seems the most appropriate under the circumstances. We will just have to deal with the backwash as it happens...and it WILL happen. Nobody said it would be easy working with human beings. At least we all appreciate a good challenge."

Archangel Bob: "Fair enough. I will make the necessary arrangements. Angel Bill, if you go now to make-up, and then meet me in the transporter chamber afterwards, we can quickly go through a rehearsal and then send you to get this job done so things can get back on track with Abe, and you can return to your remodeling.


Angel Bill: Sounds like a plan. [Disappears into thin air]

The Local GOD: [looking down at news tablet] Wow! Look what is happening in sector 2518B of the West Galactic arm! And we think we have it bad here!

Archangel Bob: [Looks over LG's shoulder to view the tablet.] "Yes indeed. We have to count our blessings."

The Local GOD: "Indeed we do....Indeed we do...."


__________________________________________________________________

[Jagella]

[Replying to post 1 by Jagella]

Re: Would you sacrifice your own son like Abraham was ready to


Yes, absolutely. .

In the same circumstances as Abraham, I hope my faith would be as strong as his.

JW

Thanks for the answer. So for you faith is to go so far as to kill your own son believing in the god that the Watch Tower has taught you.

You are not alone in your beliefs. In fact, other Jehovah's Witnesses have gone so far as to cover up child abuse in the organization. Here's what a BBC report has to say:

Louise Palmer, who now lives in Evesham, Worcestershire, was born into the organisation along with her brother Richard Davenport, who started raping her when she was four. He is serving a 10-year prison sentence for the abuse.

The 41-year-old, formerly of Halesowen, West Midlands, said she was told not to go to police.

I asked [the organisation], 'what should I do? Do you report it to the police, [or] do I report it to the police'?

And their words were that they strongly advised me not to go to the police because it would bring reproach on Jehovah.

I started this thread not so much to argue theology or morality but to warn people that if we put people second, then people get hurt. Christianity leads to child abuse, and it's time we put a stop to it.

[Wootah]

There was zero possibility of Abraham killing his son.

One would have thought there was zeo possibility of pious Job losing his children, but there you go. For the reader of the story there is every possibility the boy will die else we are in pantomime mode. Quite regardless of the outcome, the order itself is wicked. "Kill your son!" is an evil suggestion and there is no defence for it.

Abraham is revered by those who would bomb us, and this story offers some justification: God can sometimes demand that we kill innocent people. It is best seen as a teaching lesson for nomadic people, struggling to decide on which god to pick. God can ask anything - so be ready to serve, like Abraham.

Incidentally, we overlook the fact that Abraham told Abraham; Abraham reported on Abraham; there is nothing to suppose that God was involved at all; we have a butual man displaying brutality, the man who sent his other son and his mistress away into the desert, at the instigation of his wife.

Well, to be fair we all lose our children. We all are under sentence of death. As I recall in Job the devil did it. It feels similar to blaming the NRA for school shootings. Nor do I think Abraham is a good person. Yes, people getting the Bible story wrong can do bad things, in fact, I would agree totally that nearly all evil is getting the Bible stories wrong. The 'problem' is that God does not compel. We can understand the Bible completely and still do evil. It's like saying we shouldn't eat meat because sometimes we can cook it wrong.

There are many parents alive today (and I only mean those of sound mind and body) who know how evil their children are and do nothing. Probably because evil or not that child is their next generation.

Actually, there are incredibly deep parallels in the story to Jesus and it's far more likely best meant to be understood in that regard.

[imhereforyou]

[Replying to post 1 by Jagella]

I suppose it depends. If I had many supernatural experiences and/or I was mentally damaged, I probably would.
Being that I'm of sound mind now, not only would I not but I would question anything that asked me to do such a thing.
Surely sacrificing one's own life would be a better option? But the old testament god is all about death and smiting so I wouldn't be surprised I suppose.

[Jagella]

[Replying to post 1 by Jagella]
If I had many supernatural experiences and/or I was mentally damaged, I probably would.

Not that I'm being facetious, but can you tell the difference between having supernatural experiences and being "mentally damaged"? I've been wondering lately if they are one and the same.

Please understand that I mean no disrespect to anybody who has mental illness. They're as human and as valuable as any of us and deserve respect.

Being that I'm of sound mind now, not only would I not but I would question anything that asked me to do such a thing.

What if you thought the thing was God? Would you obey it?

Surely sacrificing one's own life would be a better option?

No. No sacrifices is the best option. We should value and respect human life.

But the old testament god is all about death and smiting so I wouldn't be surprised I suppose.

Richard Dawkins describes him this way:

The God of the Old Testament is arguably the most unpleasant character in all fiction: jealous and proud of it; a petty, unjust, unforgiving control-freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully.

Hmmm--Dawkins must have left something out.