The fabrication of Jesus.

[Elijah John]

Some go beyond the theory that a real, human Jesus existed and was later mythologized into the Divine person of "Christ".

Some hold that Jesus of Nazareth never existed at all, even as a completely human person.

For debate:

-Why would anyone have invented the tale that Jesus existed?

-Who "invented" Jesus, and why?

[rikuoamero]

[Replying to rikuoamero]

I do not underestimate conspiracies. I dismiss them out of hand. Any major conspiracy, like that one mentioned here, requires a massive number of people to keep a massive secret their entire lives. There is no reasonable possibility of that happening.

Which is perhaps the biggest reason I don't adopt it wholesale. While I have admitted in the past to leaning towards Jesus being completely fictional, this is what stops me from adopting it.

[rikuoamero]

[Replying to post 16 by William]

Certainly 'far fetched ' or not, one has to wonder at the propensity of people to believe in the words of ancient manuscript to be 'the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth' to the extent that they will purposefully stay ignorant as to any proposed explanations which have the potential to shake their faith in that department.

Such is the fear of 'offending the GOD' and ending up in hell. Losing one's promised position as saints in heaven is just not worth the risk of contemplating the obvious.

Ever read Kent Hovind's quote unquote PhD thesis? If not, it has such startling gems as the theory of evolution being thought up by Satan and taught to Adam and Eve, or that if one calculates the annually increasing distance between Earth and the Moon, one will find that it would have only gotten to its present position after a few thousand years (of course, Hovind didn't provide the calculations, and if one actually DOES do them, you'll find that it takes millions of years for said distance).
Ask Hovind about his 'thesis' today and he'll maintain it's still quite valid.

[Willum]

[Replying to post 16 by William]

Atwell, though correct; I find his arguments a little weak. There is so much more than what he says to believe it was a fabrication.
The obvious culture clash between Jew and Gentile completely being missed by New Testament authors, resulting the death and Diaspora of Jerusalem for example.

[Replying to post 18 by bjs]
You dismiss conspiracy out of hand, do you?
www.washingtonsblog.com/2015/02/41-admi ... tacks.html

So conspiracies do exist.

The thing about this conspiracy is simple to parameterize:
Is it more realistic to resurrect two men, and have only one record, or have the book made up?

Or, is it more realistic to believe a girl has a dream on a Summer day, or actually follows a white rabbit claiming it is late, down a hole to discover a land of invisible cats, and playing card soldiers?

[William]

[Replying to post 22 by Willum]

Atwell, though correct; I find his arguments a little weak.


Sorry - lost you there. Who's arguments do you find a little weak?

There is so much more than what he says to believe it was a fabrication.

He who?

[Tired of the Nonsense]

Some go beyond the theory that a real, human Jesus existed and was later mythologized into the Divine person of "Christ".

Some hold that Jesus of Nazareth never existed at all, even as a completely human person.

For debate:

-Why would anyone have invented the tale that Jesus existed?

-Who "invented" Jesus, and why?

One theory is that the story of Jesus was based on a traveling passion play early in the first century about a wandering Jewish rabbi and his determination to hang onto to his beliefs right down to his painful execution. So when we read a long dissertation such as the sermon on the mount, or Jesus speaking to God in Gethsemane, we are actually reading soliloquies from a play.

Another is the theory that the Biblical story of Jesus arose from the story of events which occurred in the 2nd century BC of Miriam, a Roman soldier named Pandera, (or Panthera) and their love child, Yeshu.

The following is excerpted from "The Story of Christian Origins," by Dr. Martin A. Larson (PhD, English Literature, Michigan State, 1923).

"Throughout the middle ages, the legend of Pandera and Yeshu, considered by most scholars a Jewish invention, continued to persist. The tale however is extremely ancient, for it was known, long before the Christians had the power to persecute, to the Greek Neo-Platonist Celsus, who flourished 175-180 (AD). Origen quotes the Greek as having said, concerning the mother of Jesus, that 'when she was pregnant she was turned out of doors by the carpenter to whom she had been betrothed, as having been guilty of adultery, and she bore a child to a certain soldier named Panthera.' (Contra Celsum, VII, ix). Knowledge now available (in the Dead Sea Scrolls) concerning the Teacher of Righteousness (as termed by the Essenes) has thrown an entirely new light on this Pandera-legend, which is related in detail by Morris Goldstein and which, in brief, runs as follows: There lived in the days of King Jannaeus, 103-76 (BC), in Bethlehem, a certain disreputable young man whose name was Joseph Pandera. He seduced the chaste and lovely Miriam by pretending to be her betrothed husband, Johanan; and the result was a son, Yeshoshua, or Yeshu. When it became known that Yeshu was illegitimate, he fled to Galilee, where he practiced magic by learning the letters of the Ineffable Name and where he declared that he was born miraculously of a virgin, according to the prophecy of Isaiah 7:14. Yeshu, thereupon, declared himself the Messiah, and produced various texts from the prophets, which he said applied to him. The Jewish sages then brought Yeshu before queen Helene (probably the wife of Aristobulus II) and accused him of sorcery. A corpse was brought in, and when Yeshu restored it to life the queen became his devotee. The sages now selected a man called Judah Iskarito and taught him also the letters of the Ineffable Name, by which he too could practice magic. In a trial before the queen, both Yeshu and Iskarito lost their memory of the name and fell down powerless. Yeshu was now seized and beaten, was given vinegar to drink, and a crown of thorns was placed upon his head at Tiberias. There was a struggle among the people, and Yeshu escaped with some of his fellow-conspirators to Antioch or Egypt, where they remained until the Passover, at which time Yeshu went to Jerusalem to relearn the letters of the Ineffable Name in the Temple. Riding into Jerusalem on an ass he fulfilled the prophecy of Zechariah. Identified by Iskarito as a false prophet, Yeshu was seized and put to death on the eve of the Passover Sabbath. If Yeshu was born near the beginning of Alexander Jannaeus' reign, he would have been in his thirties at the time of his execution. The bold followers of Yeshu now came to Queen Helene with the report that he was not in his tomb, but had ascended to heaven as he had prophesied. Since his body could not be found, she demanded of the sages that they produce it within three days. It so happened, however, that the gardener, foreseeing conspiracies by the followers of Yeshu, had taken the body from the tomb and buried it in the garden; and when he learned of the queen's ultimatum, he told the sages where it lay. They seized it, tied it to the tail of a horse, and dragged it before Helene, who therefore renounced the false prophet, commended the sages for their wisdom, and derided those who had been deluded by the sorcerer."

"The story concludes with a resume of how the followers of Yeshu sought to overthrow Judaism by re-dating their feast days and their holy celebrations and by repudiating their rituals and their dietary laws; and how they caused a great commotion among the Jews for thirty years by declaring that their prophet was now sitting at the right hand of God and would return as the Almighty Messiah to condemn all unbelievers to the eternal fires of hell. This ancient legend prompts theories which, to say the least, are quite fascinating. We know that the Essenes made a fundamental issue over their divergent calendar, which placed their feasts and celebration on days other then those observed by the orthodox; and we have seen that it was a dispute over this which precipitated the trial and execution of the Teacher" ("The Story of Christian Origins", Larson, pages 281-283).

This story can be traced back as far is the second century AD. Which still only leaves it as little more than a possible Jewish reaction to Christian claims.

The common story of Jesus which has come down to us in modern times however, is a composite version created by the Catholic church beginning in the fourth century. The profusion of various works written about Jesus during the first and second century clearly establish that Jesus represented a wide spectrum of various beliefs held by various individuals right from earliest times. The original Yeshua, assuming that such an individual actually existed, has long been obliterated from the historical record.

[bjs]

[Replying to post 18 by bjs]
You dismiss conspiracy out of hand, do you?
www.washingtonsblog.com/2015/02/41-admi ... tacks.html

So conspiracies do exist.

You have provided a list of conspiracies which were all much smaller than the one you suggested, and in each case those involved were unable to keep the secret for long.

Several on the list were only ideas which were never followed through on and still the truth came out.

Several others were mistakes that people made and tried to cover up and still the truth came out.

Even the most successful efforts at fooling people were not all out fabrications. The Mukden Incident was probably the most successful conspiracy on the list, and even then they did not fabricate the story. They took a real event and tried to blame someone else for it. And still the truth came out.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mukden_Incident

This seems to provide support for my claim that all major conspiracy theories are false. A large group of people cannot keep a big secret for a long period of time.

[Willum]

[Replying to post 25 by bjs]

And you deny that lies are easier to fabricate than resurrection.
And everyday on this very site, the conspiracies you deny are revealed.
What DO you think are ultimately being discussed here? If lies, these lies are being exposed. If true, there would be proof.

Zoroastrianism is an honorable religion, have you considered it?

[liamconnor]

[Replying to post 1 by Elijah John]

A question like this will get, and in fact deserves, a million responses; none of which are any better than any other. There will be as many answers as there are wild imaginations.

What matters is historical criteria; and the "mythic Jesus" ship crashes into it every time.

[marco]

Is it more realistic to resurrect two men, and have only one record, or have the book made up?

Or, is it more realistic to believe a girl has a dream on a Summer day, or actually follows a white rabbit claiming it is late, down a hole to discover a land of invisible cats, and playing card soldiers?

Of course we discard fantasy but we must always remember that what we put in its place is not necessarily truth, though it offers a more acceptable explanation. The period in Rome's history, involving Tiberius, Caligula, Claudius and Nero, saw horrendous deeds in the highest places. It was certainly not above those in power to fabricate and mislead. Giving native barbarians a bad press meant that cruelty was justified.

How Christ is caught up in this is anyone's guess. Making him the founder of a faith that supported cannibalism would be one way of directing the anger of the plebs against his followers..... even if he never existed.

[bjs]

[Replying to post 25 by bjs]

And you deny that lies are easier to fabricate than resurrection.
And everyday on this very site, the conspiracies you deny are revealed.
What DO you think are ultimately being discussed here? If lies, these lies are being exposed. If true, there would be proof.

Zoroastrianism is an honorable religion, have you considered it?

Believing in God " specifically a God capable of raising the dead " is the divide between theists and non-theists. I am not interested in what is easier, but in what is true.

Saying something is a conspiracy is not the same thing as revealing a conspiracy. There are many conspiracy theories on this site, and on the internet in general. All the big ones are false. For instance, the theory that the Roman Empire fabricated the story of Jesus has been exposed as irrational on this very thread.

I am knowledgeable about Zoroastrianism, though I am unsure what makes it particularly honorable.