Corruption in the Clergy

[Jagella]

Scandals abound in Christianity and always have. From sex and money scandals among Pentecostal TV preachers, to child abuse allegations against the Watchtower, to the Vatican pedophile-priest cover-up, it's all over. Corruption in the clergy demonstrates that the men who criticize unbelievers for loving sin should know from personal experience what it's like to enjoy such sins.

So why trust the clergy or believe anything it says?

I can understand some people being scammed by the Christian clergy for a while like I was, but once you know you're being scammed, then the prudent thing to do is to get out like I did. Leave religion and all its corruption and all its lies behind and never return like “The dog turns back to its own vomit,� or "The sow is washed only to wallow in the mud.�

[benchwarmer]

I think this is answered by the Bible, or some doctrine... I forget exactly, but it prevents priests from sexual activity or marriage with women, men, girls, but whomever drafted this bit of divine wisdom, forgot to put on the list of proscriptions, young boys... therefore it isn't a sin.

Or something.

It is so distant in my memory, that I won't swear to it, and aren't really interested in pursuing this particularly vulgar bit of Catholic history, but that's what I got.

Priests have sex with young boys as a result in a loophole in their oaths or rules or something.

No, it's not a result of any loopholes in doctrine or the Bible. It's the result of morally bankrupt individuals taking advantage of those who are least likely to resist or complain.

The fact that this happens in a shockingly large percentage of the clergy and was subsequently swept under the rug by those in Church hierarchy only proves that the Church is nothing special compared to any other human devised group. I say shocking because the Church is supposed to be guided by the Holy Spirit and clearly it is only guided by those who would seek to protect their's and the Church's reputation. One would think that an organization/religion guided by God would quickly weed out these type of individuals and certainly kick them out immediately upon evidence of wrong doing. Instead it seems to have been a haven for some of these people and shuffling them from parish to parish was common. Sickening...

[imhereforyou]

[Replying to post 7 by Jagella]

those corrupt people should not be trusted either.

Sure

religion takes advantage of desperate people by making grandiose promises in exchange for their uncritical belief. Just read Romans to see what I mean.

No need as I agree. Though I have read it before

If they claim they follow a perfectly moral God and act immorally, then what does that tell you about their God?

You can't totally use people to judge a supreme being like a god and its character. You CAN use these people to get an idea of how inept this god is. If it can't even get decent people to stay less than corrupt what good is it? None as I see it

If my organization is legitimate, then I don't need to ask anybody for faith.

I suppose it depends on your organization. But any leader who can't (or won't) supply proof and instead requires faith when they're more than capable of providing proof isn't a worthy leader IMO - god or person.

I've got the goods to prove I'm legit!

Not sure anyone questioned your legitimacy - at least here.

[Jagella]

[Replying to post 9 by historia]

Your conclusion, however, was that people should "leave religion and all its corruption and all its lies." The conclusion that religion itself is bad does not follow logically from the premise that some Christian preachers have done bad things.

I think it's always wise to be wary of anything that smacks of con-artistry. It is not that some of the clergy are crooked but many are. I know that to be a fact because I saw and experienced it first-hand when I was a Christian. If your idea of logic is to go on believing people who demand we uncritically believe everything they say no matter how outrageous their claims, then I want no part of your logic.

And again, if you simply answer the question I asked in the OP, then you can make your case that I'm wrong. You have that opportunity. If you continue to dodge that question, then I think I'm quite justified in concluding I'm right about the clergy being corrupt.

I'm pointing out that it is fallacious to claim that religion itself is bad simply because you've come to practice a particular religion by way of people who may themselves have done bad things.

Oh--I have loads of other reasons to see that the practice of religion is bad. I think that recognizing the corruption in the clergy is more than enough to come to that conclusion, but if it isn't enough for you, then I can offer you much more!

If you take issue with classifying that as a genetic fallacy, then let us simply call it an ad hominem fallacy.

We're getting off the topic here a bit, but how do you conclude that I committed a genetic fallacy? Do you know what a genetic fallacy is?

I didn't post any ad hominem fallacies either as far as I can tell. An ad hominem fallacy is a mistake in logic in which character is assassinated when character is not the issue being debated. In this thread the character of the clergy is the topic, so if I attack that character, then I'm making a case that relates to the topic and is quite logical. If we go with your understanding of ad hominem fallacies, then any criticism of the clergy, no matter how true or how relevant to the issue being debated, would be "illogical."

But then maybe that's what the clergy wants--any criticism of what they do must be deemed illogical!

[ttruscott]

So why trust the clergy or believe anything it says?

The clergy is a bruised reed. We are required to trust in GOD, not the clergy, and to put our faith in Christ. If you trusted the clergy for your faith, no wonder it failed when their sinfulness was exposed to you.

[ttruscott]

If they claim they follow a perfectly moral God and act immorally, then what does that tell you about their God?

Absolutely nothing! Sinfulness was created in each person by their free will to rebel against GOD. GOD's perfectly morality has nothing to do with the free will decison of each person except to allow them to make such bad choices.

I am perfect so when my son is imperfect by his choice I am not perfect...? Please.

[ttruscott]

The fact that this happens in a shockingly large percentage of the clergy ...

I'd like to know your source. The best I could find was that 2% to 7% clergy were implicated and even at 4% was equal to the general public.

[bjs]

It is not that some of the clergy are crooked but many are.

This seems to be where the case falls apart.

I am sorry if Jagella feels he was scammed by members of the clergy at some point in his life. However, generalizing all clergy from this small sample is unreasonable.

Three types of scams were mentioned in the opening post: sex and money scandals among Pentecostal TV preachers, to child abuse allegations against the Watchtower, and the Vatican pedophile-priest cover-up.

I cannot speak on the Watchtower, as it is outside of orthodox Christianity and not an area I am well informed about.

Even if we assume that every TV preacher is dishonest (and unfair assumption itself), that would still total less than 0.1% of the total clergy just in America.

Without underestimating the serious nature of the Vatican sex scandal, we need to recognize how uncommon an event it was among the clergy.

If we count every kind of sexual abuse, from “sexual talk� to outright rape (the former being more common than the latter, most of it involving teens or adults), then roughly 4% of priests were involved in this scandal. This is similar to the rate of abuse among other kinds of clergy.
http://www.newsweek.com/priests-commit- ... ales-70625

Depending on what statistic we accept about the general population, this means that sexual abuse is two to four times more common among men in general than it is among the clergy.

So why trust the clergy or believe anything it says?

Because the overwhelming majority are honest.

[benchwarmer]

The fact that this happens in a shockingly large percentage of the clergy ...

I'd like to know your source. The best I could find was that 2% to 7% clergy were implicated and even at 4% was equal to the general public.

Exactly, you are making my point for me. I explained why I said shockingly. Did you do the math to see how many abusers and abused even 2% adds up to? This took place in a sect of Christianity that claims to be guided by the Holy Spirit. Clearly they are wrong. Very, very wrong.

Edited to add some basic math in case anyone is wondering:

https://press.vatican.va/content/salast ... 0406e.html

Number of priests in 2015:
415,656

Other sources show this number in previous years was higher:

https://www.ncronline.org/blogs/ncr-tod ... -down-1980

Let's be generous though to keep the math easy. Let's say there were 400,000 priests at the time the scandal broke in the Catholic Church. At the minimum figure, that's 8,000 abusers!

Let's also assume a very low number for the number of abused by each abuser and say 3 over the course of each of these abusers 'reign'. A quick google will show that some of these abusers admitted to over 10! Being generous that's 24,000 abused young people by those who are supposedly anointed and guided by God.

24,000!!!

And that's using numbers that are very likely way too low.

I grew up in a town of approx 10,000 people. The surrounding areas with the other small towns maybe added up to this figure. To me that's staggering and shocking coming out of an organization 'of God'. And this is just the Catholic Church....

[Jagella]

[Replying to post 12 by imhereforyou]

You can't totally use people to judge a supreme being like a god and its character. You CAN use these people to get an idea of how inept this god is. If it can't even get decent people to stay less than corrupt what good is it? None as I see it

If the Christian God existed, then at the very least it should be able to make people noticeably better. A corrupt clergy that fabricates a God to fool people would fail miserably at making people better and might even make them worse. Guess what the state of affairs is in Christendom.

So as I see it the corruption in the clergy indicates strongly that the Christian god is make-believe.

[Jagella]

So why trust the clergy or believe anything it says?

The clergy is a bruised reed. We are required to trust in GOD, not the clergy, and to put our faith in Christ. If you trusted the clergy for your faith, no wonder it failed when their sinfulness was exposed to you.

While I'm not sure what you mean by "trust God," I'm glad to see you don't trust the clergy. Never give them money!

And if you trust God, does that mean you have no insurance policies? It seems to me that when Christians buy insurance policies, they lack faith in whatever God they say they believe in. Maybe they're just hedging their bets.