Who be chosen who?

[DPMartin]

There is the standard disagreement of whether God chooses you or that you chose God. In the case of “freewill� there seems to be some delusion to the effect that constitutional freedoms are the way things are, and supersedes what the bible might say on the matter. But when you see a car knowing it’s a car knowing that everyone else knows it’s a car do you emphatically deny it’s a car? (leaving all exceptions aside on this example) so do you actually have the freedom to not believe it’s a car, granted you can lie and deny openly, but do you really have the freewill to not believe it’s a car?

(it should be noted that though Calvinism is well known for “God chooses� this is not an argument for Calvinism no more than, in the previous example that the car mentioned is a ford because fords are cars)

Of course it’s true that if one never encounters Christ then one could only speculate that He is, or flat out not believe He is who Jesus Christ says He is. How can one declare what they don’t know or don’t know to be true? Seeing that revelation is the knowledge. God choses who He would reveal Himself to, correct? Certainly no one can make Him do so, therefore one can't know Him or that He is without the revelation to know. Also, in the case of the Lord God of Israel no one calls themselves, God calls, hence God choses.
Those that are with the Lord:
Rev_17:14 These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.

And the faith is of Christ.
Gal 3:21 Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.
Gal 3:22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.

So, one must be called, chosen, and faithful of which one must receive the faith of Christ that is to the satisfaction of God, which one would also receive by God’s choosing.
How is it, that many think they chose God, and that freewill has anything to do with it?


One could say Adam and Eve chose, but that is an argument for your condemned state, should you not be chosen. God made the garden and what was in it by His choice. God put the man in the garden and told Him the conditions therein, by God’s choice. Hence if there was any choice made A&E made the choice for the condition all children of men are born into. You didn’t have that choice they did it for you if you believe freewill. But you have received the life they technically didn’t chose, they choose to be gods knowing good and evil, but God left them with dust to dust, ashes to ashes which the animals already had, life of the flesh in the flesh. So actually, God chose that life for them, that you received being born into the world. So one is born into the world in the condemned state (separation from God) without their or your choosing and are chosen by God to be in the Presence of God.

Sounds cold, but those who would will be called that’s for sure.

2Pe_3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

[ttruscott]

...if it didn't change what it meant, we wouldn't be arguing it.

Atheistic secular modernists OR wrong spirited Christians who knew not YHWH at all, changed the INTERPRETATION of the word.

Argue words and meanings all your want - you do not know GOD so you do not know how wrong you are.

Do you really think that sulfurous salt water can come from a clean water spring?
Do you really think that dark can come from light?

When I see a match lit and fill the room with darkness, overpowering the light, then we might have a new conversation but don't hold your breath...

[DPMartin]

...if it didn't change what it meant, we wouldn't be arguing it.

Atheistic secular modernists OR wrong spirited Christians who knew not YHWH at all, changed the INTERPRETATION of the word.

Argue words and meanings all your want - you do not know GOD so you do not know how wrong you are.

Do you really think that sulfurous salt water can come from a clean water spring?
Do you really think that dark can come from light?

When I see a match lit and fill the room with darkness, overpowering the light, then we might have a new conversation but don't hold your breath...

just because the Lord God of Israel makes something doesn't mean it's of Him.

Gen 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. 2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters. 3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light. 4 And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.


therefore the Lord God of Israel made darkness but that doesn't mean He is darkness, nor is darkness of God.

the God of Israel created from nothing, other then His Word spoken in His Presence that commands it to be so, something believers in science can't get their heads around. it seems the god you speak of just might not have the power to make something that is not of itself.

but the Lord God of Israel can, according to scripture written by those who did know Him.

[Monta]

[Replying to post 23 by DPMartin]


"Gen 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. 2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters. 3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light. 4 And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.

therefore the Lord God of Israel made darkness but that doesn't mean He is darkness, nor is darkness of God.

the God of Israel created from nothing, other then His Word spoken ..."

Gen 1:1 does not mention God of Israel. Jews came into existence much later, who knows perhaps millions of years later.
Also the quote does not say He made darkness, only that He divided darkness from light.
Nothing comes from nothing. He created the Universe from Himself by limiting His divinity by degrees all the way down to inert matter imo.

[DPMartin]

[Replying to post 23 by DPMartin]


"Gen 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. 2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters. 3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light. 4 And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.

therefore the Lord God of Israel made darkness but that doesn't mean He is darkness, nor is darkness of God.

the God of Israel created from nothing, other then His Word spoken ..."

Gen 1:1 does not mention God of Israel. Jews came into existence much later, who knows perhaps millions of years later.
Also the quote does not say He made darkness, only that He divided darkness from light.
Nothing comes from nothing. He created the Universe from Himself by limiting His divinity by degrees all the way down to inert matter imo.

you forget power the power to do so, the power to create something out of nothing. just because you can't or man can't doesn't mean God can't.

He created the heavens which had no light therefore the absence of light is darkness and "Elohim" (Creator and Judge) is the same Lord God of Israel.


also

Isa_45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.



basically the Almighty (note all mighty) has the power to make and or create something or things He is not, or not of Him.

[brianbbs67]

Aren't you two saying about the same thing?

[Monta]

Aren't you two saying about the same thing?

Talking about but not saying the same thing.
This was my contradiction to his Gen 1:1:

Gen 1:1 does not mention God of Israel. Jews came into existence much later, who knows perhaps millions of years later.
Also the quote does not say He made darkness, only that He divided darkness from light.
Nothing comes from nothing. He created the Universe from Himself by limiting His divinity by degrees all the way down to inert matter imo.

[DPMartin]

if you want to discuss the origin of evil seeing God created the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, hence it didn't hap hazardlly appear from nothing against God's will, maybe you should start your own threads on what you want to talk about.

Your paragraph in the OP:

One could say Adam and Eve chose, but that is an argument for your condemned state, should you not be chosen. God made the garden and what was in it by His choice. God put the man in the garden and told Him the conditions therein, by God’s choice. Hence if there was any choice made A&E made the choice for the condition all children of men are born into. You didn’t have that choice they did it for you if you believe freewill. But you have received the life they technically didn’t chose, they choose to be gods knowing good and evil, but God left them with dust to dust, ashes to ashes which the animals already had, life of the flesh in the flesh. So actually, God chose that life for them, that you received being born into the world. So one is born into the world in the condemned state (separation from God) without their or your choosing and are chosen by God to be in the Presence of God.

is not about the origin of evil?

[There IS NO actual question for debate, is there...]

One could say Adam and Eve chose, but that is an argument for your condemned state, should you not be chosen.

This is only a necessity IF we accept that we are born sinners means that since our spirits are created at conception or birth (the created on earth bias) so that the only way this could be true is if we inherited that sin from Adam....but it is written we (sinners) inherit Adam's death, not his sin. That extrapolation is a confirmation of the bias only, which does not make it necessarily true.

God made the garden and what was in it by His choice. God put the man in the garden and told Him the conditions therein, by God’s choice. Hence if there was any choice made A&E made the choice for the condition all children of men are born into.

There is no logical progression from GOD making HIS choices to this making Adam choose for all mankind. The created on earth bias forces one to believe this but it is not logically presented yet, especially in the light of the fact that HE created us to love and to marry and there is no reason at all, let alone a bad reason, for HIM to create HIS future bride as grossly nauseatingly evil, pustulant and perverse.

You didn’t have that choice they did it for you if you believe freewill. But you have received the life they technically didn’t chose, they choose to be gods knowing good and evil, but God left them with dust to dust, ashes to ashes which the animals already had, life of the flesh in the flesh.

IF true guilt can only come from a free will decision to rebel against HIM, then to be born evil must prove that we sinned pre-conception and the created on earth bias be hanged.

So we did all in fact put ourselves above HIM to be as gods and separated ourselves into the two main groups of the elect and the non-elect and the smaller subgroup of the sinful elect as portrayed in the parable of the good seed, Matt 13:36-39, the people of the kingdom, sinful believers, and the people of the evil one, condemned already for their unbelief, Jn 3:18.

The sinful elect are sown here to work out their redemption by living with the people of the evil one...Matt 13:29-30.

So actually, God chose that life for them, that you received being born into the world. So one is born into the world in the condemned state (separation from God) without their or your choosing and are chosen by God to be in the Presence of God.

That GOD chose our sinfulness and our sin is wrongly decided because it is based upon a false premise that we are created here on earth and there is no other way for us to be born sinful. GOD did choose "... that life for them, that you received being born into the world." but I argue HE did not choose our sin but responded to our self chosen free will evil by a predetermination of our LIVES, not our fates, to ensure that HIS sinful elect got the most perfect lives they could live to bring them to redemption and righteousness the most perfect way possible.

maybe you want to believe man is inherently good, but that's not what God says:

Gen_8:21 And the LORD smelled a sweet savour; and the LORD said in his heart, I will not again curse the ground any more for man's sake; for the imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth; neither will I again smite any more every thing living, as I have done.


also Jesus says:

Joh 8:21 Then said Jesus again unto them, I go my way, and ye shall seek me, and shall die in your sins: whither I go, ye cannot come. 22 Then said the Jews, Will he kill himself? because he saith, Whither I go, ye cannot come. 23 And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world. 24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.


human nature is not God's nature, Adam died from that Life that has God's nature and seeing man was made to be in God's image and likeness the day God made Adam. and because Adam lost that, the sons of men are born in to sin, separation from the Life Adam once had which is the will of God for man to have.

man isn't inherently good man is inherently animal (flesh) it is the life the sons of men are born into coming into the world. dead souls in the flesh.


Jesus restores that Life given Adam, as per God's conditions stated in the Gospels.

[ttruscott]

maybe you want to believe man is inherently good, but that's not what God says:

I can tell you did not read what I wrote or you could not believe and report that I believe humans are inherently good. I have seen it a lot: get confused so accuse.

People, not humans, were created perfect with a perfect ability to use their free will to be good or bad.
- Some elect people chose to never do evil, Michael and Gabriel for two.
- Others chose to be evil in YHWH's sight; Satan et al.
- And some of the elect who accepted YHWH's divinity chose to rebel against the call for damnation of the satanic causing the postponement of the judgement and the use of Earth as a prison planet for all sinners, elect and non-elect both, as humans.

No human is innocent.
All humans are guilty of their own sin by their own free will, NOT because of Adam.

GOD cannot create moral darkness:
1 John 1:5 This is the message we have heard from him and declare to you: God is light; in him there is no darkness at all. This is the perfect metaphor for HIS eternal moral perfection. Just as a source of light when lit never has darkness come out and fill the room, so to can GOD, as the source of all moral goodness, never put forth the darkness of moral evil.

Start here from this premise and you will not go astray in your understanding of what darkness HE creates.

Natural light doesn't need to be separated from the darkness caused by an impedance to the light. Light goes everywhere once the impedance is removed as light naturally destroys the dark. Unless light refers to goodness, it is ridiculous to say that HE separated the light from the dark. Something other than the physics of creation is happening here...

3 And God said, “Let there be light,� and there was light. 4 God saw that the light was good, and he separated the light from the darkness. This light must be goodness or faith as natural light doesn't act this way. Therefore I conclude that this refers to the time after our creation when HE called for everyone created in HIS image to choose to accept HIS claims to be our GOD and become HIS elect or to reject HIS claims to be GOD and become eternally condemned.

There is no proof that let there be light is HIS first act of creation. It is also a great metaphor for calling HIS creation to faith. Condemning to judgement those who rejected HIS deity in favour of putting their faith in the idea that HE was a false god telling lies is then the separating the believers from the unbelievers, the light from the dark.

There is also the witness that HE rested, that is, stopped HIS work of creation as finished yet the orthodox world accepts that HE creates anew every spirit for every conception or birth so dependent is that theology upon the created on earth bias.

[DPMartin]

maybe you want to believe man is inherently good, but that's not what God says:

I can tell you did not read what I wrote or you could not believe and report that I believe humans are inherently good. I have seen it a lot: get confused so accuse.

People, not humans, were created perfect with a perfect ability to use their free will to be good or bad.
- Some elect people chose to never do evil, Michael and Gabriel for two.
- Others chose to be evil in YHWH's sight; Satan et al.
- And some of the elect who accepted YHWH's divinity chose to rebel against the call for damnation of the satanic causing the postponement of the judgement and the use of Earth as a prison planet for all sinners, elect and non-elect both, as humans.

No human is innocent.
All humans are guilty of their own sin by their own free will, NOT because of Adam.

GOD cannot create moral darkness:
1 John 1:5 This is the message we have heard from him and declare to you: God is light; in him there is no darkness at all. This is the perfect metaphor for HIS eternal moral perfection. Just as a source of light when lit never has darkness come out and fill the room, so to can GOD, as the source of all moral goodness, never put forth the darkness of moral evil.

Start here from this premise and you will not go astray in your understanding of what darkness HE creates.

Natural light doesn't need to be separated from the darkness caused by an impedance to the light. Light goes everywhere once the impedance is removed as light naturally destroys the dark. Unless light refers to goodness, it is ridiculous to say that HE separated the light from the dark. Something other than the physics of creation is happening here...

3 And God said, “Let there be light,� and there was light. 4 God saw that the light was good, and he separated the light from the darkness. This light must be goodness or faith as natural light doesn't act this way. Therefore I conclude that this refers to the time after our creation when HE called for everyone created in HIS image to choose to accept HIS claims to be our GOD and become HIS elect or to reject HIS claims to be GOD and become eternally condemned.

There is no proof that let there be light is HIS first act of creation. It is also a great metaphor for calling HIS creation to faith. Condemning to judgement those who rejected HIS deity in favour of putting their faith in the idea that HE was a false god telling lies is then the separating the believers from the unbelievers, the light from the dark.

There is also the witness that HE rested, that is, stopped HIS work of creation as finished yet the orthodox world accepts that HE creates anew every spirit for every conception or birth so dependent is that theology upon the created on earth bias.

well again you've posted that your god isn't powerful enough to make some thing your god is not.

where as the Lord God of Israel is, He can create darkness without any darkness in Him.


the god you speak of doesn't know what it is not therefore not able to create it. but the God of Israel does know what He is not and is able to create or make what ever He is not. hence Almighty, not some mighty like the god you speak of.

fyi I'm going to keep repeating this because its the truth of the matter and there really isn't any more to say on your position of your off OP subject.

[OnceConvinced]

Aren't you two saying about the same thing?

I agree. Whether you want to say he creates evil, calamity, disaster or whatever other term the various versions are using, it still sounds like evil to me. It still all sounds very malevolent.