Silent no More: The Rise of the New Atheists

[Jagella]

I read some very good news in the April 2018 Scientific American. Michael Shermer writes in his Skeptic column "that 23 percent of all Americans have forsaken religion all together." The 23 percent figure is based on a 2013 Harris Poll and corroborated by a 2015 Pew Research Center poll. It is a "dramatic increase" from 2007 when only 16 percent of polled Americans said they were affiliated with no religion.

Why these poll results are so important to me is that the real good news is that America has a chance to lead the world with a new sense of social responsibility. We atheists can succeed where religionists have failed. As religion and superstition decline; science, critical thinking, and true morality can increase. We can level the playing field for all Americans granting everybody a chance to make something out of themselves. Let's leave religion and all its "bad fruit" behind forever!

Our efforts to turn the tables on Christianity appear to be working. Do you agree?

[Tcg]

I agree with your sentiments about "strong atheism"; I can't see how this position, -that of Dawkins - is reached by logical means.

While Dawkins had "strong atheism" on his spectrum of theistic positions at number 7, that wasn't his position. He identified as number 6, "De facto atheist".

[Jagella]

[Replying to post 27 by AgnosticBoy]

Neither your opening post nor the article asked why people are leaving religion.

Shermer writes that he suspects that people are leaving traditional religion for "New Age notions" of continuing consciousness via "morphic resonance" or quantum field. He thinks they also might be hoping to live on through scientific breakthroughs like cryonics or mind uploading.

Atheism of the strong variety is certainly not synonymous with logic and basic knowledge. It is based on SOME logic and knowledge, but other parts are not as settled, especially when it comes to philosophy.

Strong atheism, I suppose, might be based on a lot of things. I don't necessarily believe that atheism leads to logic, but logic can definitely lead to atheism.

If I recall correctly, I remember some theists setting you straight on some of your inaccurate views on the life of Jesus so clearly your claims of logic and knowledge aren't necessarily logical and knowledge-based even if you believe so.

Well, you're either not recalling correctly, or you didn't get it the first time. As far as I know none of my views on the life of Jesus are inaccurate. You may be confusing their disagreement with me with correction. I stand by everything I've posted in this forum as accurate and reasonable to the best of my knowledge, and I think I've been entirely successful in arguing my case every time.

And how did I end up the subject on this thread? You need to take care not to employ the fallacy of arguing "against the man."

I would seek power and influence as well but only in relation to what I KNOW is good and/or correct. This isn't established for atheistic claims on all matters.

Who said it was? Please take care not to twist the words of you ideological opponent.

This is one reason why I refuse to identify myself as an atheist - it's just leaving one faith for another. And yes, many atheists tend to conduct themselves just like an organized faith group. Agnostics, moderate Christians, and moderate atheists see right through these antics from BOTH sides.

I agree that labels might be inappropriate, but as far as belief in gods is concerned, I have no problem telling people I'm an atheist. There's no faith in atheism any more than there's faith in not believing in ghosts or elves. And just because some atheists may organize groups, those groups are no more based on faith than other groups like the Kiwanis club or a bowling league.

I think I see some irrational fear of change in what you're posting here. Change can be good, and in this case it looks great! If people decide to leave religion, then I hope you agree they have every right to do so. This change to atheism is based on freedom of choice and thought, and you need not fear such change.

[historia]

However, I think it's crystal clear that organized atheists have never been accused of mass murdering Christians.

This is simply mistaken.

Organized atheists in the Soviet Union and Eastern Europe persecuted and killed Christians after the Communist revolution. Church leaders were killed by the thousands. And, by some estimates, 15-20 million Christians were killed in Soviet prison camps, often under the guise of disloyalty to the state. See, e.g., the Wikipedia article on Persecution of Christians in the Soviet Union.

Similar events played out in the latter part of the 20th Century in China and other Communist states in East Asia, of course, although Christians were not the primary victims there.

[Realworldjack]

[Replying to post 1 by Jagella]

As religion and superstition decline; science, critical thinking, and true morality can increase.

Could you please explain to us, what "true morality" would be?"

[Willum]

[Replying to post 33 by historia]

I don't think you are reading your sources - the murders seem to be a political convenience... the Orthodox have essentially lined themselves up for him to murder them... Stalin was murdering fairly indiscriminately, according to political, not religious lines...

This is the most telling...

Joseph Stalin revived the Russian Orthodox Church to intensify patriotic support for the war effort and presented Russia as a defender of Christian civilization,

Stalin, after all, didn't care one way or the other... but if people were going to rebel along church-lines, you'd have to be very naive to think Stalin wouldn't kill you.

Keep a clear perspective.

[Jagella]

However, I think it's crystal clear that organized atheists have never been accused of mass murdering Christians.

This is simply mistaken.

Organized atheists in the Soviet Union and Eastern Europe persecuted and killed Christians after the Communist revolution. Church leaders were killed by the thousands. And, by some estimates, 15-20 million Christians were killed in Soviet prison camps, often under the guise of disloyalty to the state. See, e.g., the Wikipedia article on Persecution of Christians in the Soviet Union.

Similar events played out in the latter part of the 20th Century in China and other Communist states in East Asia, of course, although Christians were not the primary victims there.

What you're saying here is basically correct, but it may be a bit over-simplified. You appear to be confusing communism with atheism. Yes, most of the major communists were atheists, but they were men, too. You could just as easily blame their gender for their genocides. What really needs to be understood is why so many communists have persecuted religious people and other groups. I don't think atheism was their motive. Atheism was probably more of an effect of their communism than it was a cause.

The hatred communists showed for religion I think is a very interesting issue. As in most cases of hatred, there may be good reasons for it. I think a very possible reason for that animosity is the corruption brought on in many governments by religion.

I'd recommend Stalin: Triumph and Tragedy by Dmitri Volkogonov to better understand Stalin and what motivated him. Volkogonov writes that Stalin learned his brutal ways in a Christian seminary.

[alexxcJRO]

However, I think it's crystal clear that organized atheists have never been accused of mass murdering Christians.

This is simply mistaken.

Organized atheists in the Soviet Union and Eastern Europe persecuted and killed Christians after the Communist revolution. Church leaders were killed by the thousands. And, by some estimates, 15-20 million Christians were killed in Soviet prison camps, often under the guise of disloyalty to the state. See, e.g., the Wikipedia article on Persecution of Christians in the Soviet Union.

Similar events played out in the latter part of the 20th Century in China and other Communist states in East Asia, of course, although Christians were not the primary victims there.

Dear sir, I am hoping you are not suggesting atheism is the cause for the atrocities committed by the communists for that would be fallacious.

Also I am hoping that you know on the other hand that the religious atrocities committed by Christian were as a direct result of scripture, ecclesiastical edicts, tradition, and clerical authority.

Let's not forget about:

Kill Witches
You should not let a sorceress live.(Exodus 22:17)

Kill Homosexuals
If a man lies with a male as with a women, both of them shall be put to death for their abominable deed; they have forfeited their lives. (Leviticus 20:13)

Kill Fortunetellers
A man or a woman who acts as a medium or fortuneteller shall be put to death by stoning; they have no one but themselves to blame for their death. (Leviticus 20:27)

Kill Non-believers

If there is found among you, within any of your towns that the Lord your God is giving you, a man or woman who does what is evil in the sight of the Lord your God, in transgressing his covenant, and has gone and served other gods and worshiped them, or the sun or the moon or any of the host of heaven, which I have forbidden, and it is told you and you hear of it, then you shall inquire diligently, and if it is true and certain that such an abomination has been done in Israel, then you shall bring out to your gates that man or woman who has done this evil thing, and you shall stone that man or woman to death with stones. On the evidence of two witnesses or of three witnesses the one who is to die shall be put to death; a person shall not be put to death on the evidence of one witness. ..."(Deuteronomy 17:2-7)


If you hear in one of your cities, which the Lord your God is giving you to dwell there, that certain worthless fellows have gone out among you and have drawn away the inhabitants of their city, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which you have not known, then you shall inquire and make search and ask diligently. And behold, if it be true and certain that such an abomination has been done among you, you shall surely put the inhabitants of that city to the sword, devoting it to destruction, all who are in it and its cattle, with the edge of the sword. You shall gather all its spoil into the midst of its open square and burn the city and all its spoil with fire, as a whole burnt offering to the Lord your God. It shall be a heap forever. It shall not be built again. "(Deuteronomy 13:12-16)

[historia]

You appear to be confusing communism with atheism.

Communism is a socioeconomic system. Atheism is a theological position.

What really needs to be understood is why so many communists have persecuted religious people and other groups. I don't think atheism was their motive. Atheism was probably more of an effect of their communism than it was a cause.

But communism -- broadly speaking -- is not inherently anti-religious. It's possible to have a communist / socialist system that is neutral or even supportive of religion. The earliest Christians held all property in common, for example. And Christian Socialism is a long-standing political movement in Europe.

The Marxist-Leninist brand of Communism that took power in Russia in the early part of the 20th Century, however, was officially atheist. It supported socialist economic policies, of course. But it also had the goal of spreading atheism by eliminating religion, mostly because Marx and Lenin thought religion was detrimental to society.

Unsurprisingly, that periodically led to atheist violence against Christians, and in particular the clergy, including killings.

[Jagella]

[Replying to post 38 by historia]

...it also had the goal of spreading atheism by eliminating religion, mostly because Marx and Lenin thought religion was detrimental to society.

If communism sought to eliminate religion, then it's good in that regard. I want to eliminate religion too. Education is a great place to start.

[Tcg]

Atheism is a theological position.

That is the equivalent of claiming alopecia is a hair style. Theological positions involve a belief in a god of some sort. In the same way that alopecia doesn't involve a hair style, atheism doesn't involve a belief in god.