suffering servant = Messiah = Jesus!

[Metacrock]

Can we demonstrate that the suffering servant of Isaiah 53 is Jesus?

(1) we can demosntrate that he is the Messiah and not just Israel

(2) we can demonstrate that it fits Jesus better than anyone else.


by saying ss is not Isreael I am not excluding the possiblity that since Messiah comes out of Israel that it is both Isreal and an idnivudal person called "Messiah."



I. close reading of chatper will follow.



II. Messiah Will be Light to the Gentiles


A. Israel's Original Mission.


B. Israel cannot accomplish its mission without Messiah.


Messiah is contrasted with wayward Israel in several places Isaiah. Is 50:1-3 "Where is your mother's cirtificate of divorce withwhich I sent her away? OR to which of my creditors did I sell you? Becasue of your sins you were sold, because of your transgressions your mother was sent away....do I lack the strength to rescue you?

To which Messiah responds "...I have not been rebellious, I have not drawn back..." (v5)


1) Messiah to be covenant for Israel

"will keep you," God tells the Messiah "and will make you to be a covenant for the land." (Is 49:8-


2) Messiah to bring Israel back to God


Is 49:5

And now says the Lord, who formed Me from the womb to be His Servant, To bring Jacob back to Him, in order that Israel might be gathered to Him (For I am honored in the sight of the Lord, And My God is My strength)

C. Messiah to bring Israel back AND be light to Gentiles.

49:6

He says, "It is too small a thing that You should be My Servant To raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved ones of Israel; I will also make You a light of the nations So that My salvation may reach to the end of the earth."



D. What the Sevant does in 53 is exactly

what the book says Messiah will do.


1) Messaih emerges out of Israel

Is 43:10 "You are My witnesses," declares the Lord, "And My servant whom I have chosen, In order that you may know and believe Me, And understand that I am He. Before Me there was no God formed, And there will be none after Me.

"My witnesses" is plural, "My servant" is signular. The servant is part of the witnesses, coming out of Israel, produced by the line of David. Edersheim documents that Rabbical authorites recognize this verse as pertianing to Messiah.



2) Messiah rejected

Is. 50:6 "I offered my back to those who beat me, my cheeks to those who pulled out my beard, I did not hide my face from mocking and spitting..." And we see a rejected servant in 53, a "man of sarrows accounted with greif." This is one who "was despised and rejected."


3) Messiah accomplishes his task

Is 41:4


"here is my servant whom I uphold, my chosen one in whom I delight, I will put my Spirit on him and he will bring jutsice to the nations." Or chater 11: 1 which is clearly marked out as the Messiah: "A shoot will come up from the stump of Jessey; from his roots a branch will bear fruit...(4) but with rigtheousness he will judge the needy, with justice he will give decsions for the poor...(10) in that day the root of Jessey will stand as a banner for the people, the nations will raly to him and his place of rest will be glorious."


Is, 42:6 (established as Messiah on previous page) "I will keep you and make you to be a covenat for the people and a light for the gentiles."

Compare: "(2)" He grew up before him like a tener shoot, and like a root out of dry ground....(12) "because he poured out his life unto death, and was numbered with the trasngressors. For he bore the sin of many and made intercession for the transgressors."


We see that clearly throughout the book of Isiah, Israel is in no shape to be a redeemer, but itself must be redeemed. It cannot be a light to the nations without one from among it's people, Messiah, brining it back to God. In that process Messiah will be a light to the Gentiles, and the covenant for the land. Chapter 11 sasy explicitly that Messiah (the Branch) will do do this, he will be the light to the gentiles. And that is just what we see happening in 53, the servant is marked by the same, or close epithet, Branch, shoot, and is redeeming many. In fact in 52 we see that he will draw the nations to himself. This chapter (53) fits everything it says about Messiah, his mission, and his function, it does not fit anything about Israel.


III. The functin of the Passage in the overall book (s) of Isaiah.



A. Dialectical pattern of the book


1) God condemns Israel for waywardness

2) God calls Israel back and encourages her to be faithful.

3) The Messiah as Intsurment of God's plan

punctuates the pattern of dialogue



B. Chapter 53 as Crucial pivot in God's plan


1) Servant takes the rap for the many and redeems


2) After 53 Israel is seen in the blessed Kingdom in peace and prosterity.


3) The Servant's work as redeemed Israel.

The editor/redactor has placed this passage in the central location. After all the interwoven messages of confonfation and comfort, punctuated by expecations of the Messiah as redeemer, the suffering servant takes the balme for transgressions, it punished on behalf of the people, and than we see the people livng in the blessings of God . The editor used this passage as a means to express the hope and promise that as a result of the Lord's work Israel would return to God and live in peace and abanundance. Although the edtor probably invisioned this as looking forward to the return form exile, the work of Messiah in accmplishing redeemption, it does not necessarily mean that it refurs to a chronological event in that day priror to return from exile. But it looks forward to an event that would transpire at some point in the futre.


C. Israel as redeemer of Itself and others doesn't fit the pivital function.

There is no sense of how Israel was redeemed. Without the work of the SS being that of Messiah the work is incomplete. Irael would go from being wayward and weak to suddenly being strong enough to serve as suffering redeemer with no sense of how it got there and the interwoven strands of Messianich promise for this function would just be loose ends that are never tired up.

Note: this view works even better if one is determined to see the final chapters as eschatological (end times, Messianich Kingdom).

[Metacrock]

here's the chart that shows how many times others are refurred to as servant in the book and who is so refurred.




Gentiles

Isa 14:2 And the peoples will take them along and bring them to their place, and the house of Israel will possess them as an inheritance in the land of the Lord as male servant s and fe male servant s; and they will take their captors captive, and will rule over their oppressors.

Isaiah servant of God Isa 20:3 And the Lord said, "Even as My servant Isaiah has gone naked and barefoot three years as a sign and token against Egypt and Cush,

Eliakim servant of God Isa 22:20 "Then it will come about in that day, That I will summon My servant Eliakim the son of Hilkiah

General use Isa 24:2 And the people will be like the priest, the servant like his master, the maid like her mistress, the buyer like the seller, the lender like the borrower, the creditor like the debtor.

Other 36:9 "How then can you repulse one official of the least of my master's servant s, and rely on Egypt for chariots and for horsemen?

Isa 36:11 Then Eliakim and Shebna and Joah said to Rabshakeh, "Speak now to your servant s in Aramaic, for we understand it; and do not speak with us in Judean, in the hearing of the people who are on the wall."

Isa 37:5 So the servant s of King Hezekiah came to Isaiah.
Isa 37:24 "Through your servant s you have reproached the Lord, And you have said, 'With my many chariots I came up to the heights of the mountains, To the remotest parts of Lebanon; And I cut down its tall cedars and its choice cypresses. And I will go to its highest peak, its thickest forest.
David 37:35 'For I will defend this city to save it for My own sake and for My servant David's sake.'"

Israel 41:8 "But you, Israel, My servant, Jacob whom I have chosen, Descendant of Abraham My friend,

Israel 41:9 You whom I have taken from the ends of the earth, And called from its remotest parts, And said to you, 'You are My servant, I have chosen you and not rejected you.

Messiah in Targum 42:1 "Behold, My Servant, whom I uphold; My chosen one in whom My soul delights. I have put My Spirit upon Him; He will bring forth justice to the nations.

Israel(?) 42:19 Who is blind but My servant, Or so deaf as My messenger whom I send? Who is so blind as he that is at peace with Me, Or so blind as the servant of the Lord?

Messiah in Targum 43:10 "You are My witnesses," declares the Lord, "And My servant whom I have chosen, In order that you may know and believe Me, And understand that I am He. Before Me there was no God formed, And there will be none after Me.

Israel 44:1 "But now listen, O Jacob, My servant; And Israel, whom I have chosen:
Israel 44:2 Thus says the Lord who made you And formed you from the womb, who will help you, 'Do not fear, O Jacob My servant; And you Jeshurun whom I have chosen.

Israel 44:21 :"Remember these things, O Jacob, And Israel, for you are My servant; I have formed you, you are My servant, O Israel, you will not be forgotten by Me.

The Prophet 44:26 Confirming the word of His servant, And performing the purpose of His messengers. It is I who says of Jerusalem, 'She shall be inhabited!' And of the cities of Judah, 'They shall be built.' And I will raise up her ruins again.
Israel 45:4 "For the sake of Jacob My servant, And Israel My chosen one, I have also called you by your name; I have given you a title of honor Though you have not known Me.

Israel 48:20 Go forth from Babylon! Flee from the Chaldeans! Declare with the sound of joyful shouting, proclaim this, Send it out to the end of the earth; Say, "The Lord has redeemed His servant Jacob."
Israel 49:3 And He said to Me, "You are My Servant, Israel, In Whom I will show My glory."

Messiah 49:5 And now says the Lord, who formed Me from the womb to be His Servant, To bring Jacob back to Him, in order that Israel might be gathered to Him (For I am honored in the sight of the Lord, And My God is My strength)

Messiah 49:6 He says, "It is too small a thing that You should be My Servant To raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved ones of Israel; I will also make You a light of the nations So that My salvation may reach to the end of the earth."
10 49:7 Thus says the Lord, the Redeemer of Israel, and its Holy One, To the despised One, To the One abhorred by the nation, To the Servant of rulers, "Kings shall see and arise, Princes shall also bow down; Because of the Lord who is faithful, the Holy One of Israel who has chosen You."

The Messiah* 50:10 Who is among you that fears the Lord, That obeys the voice of His servant, That walks in darkness and has no light? Let him trust in the name of the Lord and rely on his God.

Israel 54:17 "No weapon that is formed against you shall prosper; And every tongue that accuses you in judgment you will condemn. This is the heritage of the servant s of the Lord, And their vindication is from Me," declares the Lord.

Foreigners who believe 56:6 "Also the foreigners who join themselves to the Lord, To minister to Him, and to love the name of the Lord, To be His servants, every one who keeps from profaning the sabbath, And holds fast My covenant;
Israel 63:17 Why, O Lord, dost Thou cause us to stray from Thy ways, And harden our heart from fearing Thee? Return for the sake of Thy servant s, the tribes of Thy heritage.

General/other 65:8 Thus says the Lord, "As the new wine is found in the cluster, And one says, 'Do not destroy it, for there is benefit in it,' So I will act on behalf of My servant s In order not to destroy all of them.
Israel Isa 65:9 "And I will bring forth offspring from Jacob, And an heir of My mountains from Judah; Even My chosen ones shall inherit it, And My servant s shall dwell there.

Israel Isa 65:13 : Therefore, thus says the Lord God, "Behold, My servant s shall eat, but you shall be hungry. Behold, My servant s shall drink, but you shall be thirsty. Behold, My servant s shall rejoice, but you shall be put to shame.
Israel called by another name Isa 65:15 "And you will leave your name for a curse to My chosen ones, And the Lord God will slay you. But My servant s will be called by another name.

Israel(?) Isa 66:14 Then you shall see this, and your heart shall be glad, And your bones shall flourish like the new grass; And the hand of the Lord shall be made known to His servant s, But He shall be indignant toward His enemies.



Israel = 8

Messiah = 5 (4?)

Others besides Israel = 9

One Prolbematic*

[Goat]

Did I take the passage in 50 out of conext? Let's start back at 49


c) 49:6


He says, "It is too small a thing that You should be My Servant To raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved ones of Israel; I will also make You a light of the nations So that My salvation may reach to the end of the earth."

T.

Yes, you did. YOu refuse to look at the passage right in front of it.

WHy is that? You are ignoring 49:3, where the servent is explicitly identified.

You may try to talk all aroudn it, but you start your interpretation AT 49:6, and refuse to read 49:1-5.

Until you deal with that, youa re out of context. You are also reading into it things that are not there.

[Metacrock]

Did I take the passage in 50 out of conext? Let's start back at 49


c) 49:6


He says, "It is too small a thing that You should be My Servant To raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved ones of Israel; I will also make You a light of the nations So that My salvation may reach to the end of the earth."

T.

Yes, you did. YOu refuse to look at the passage right in front of it.

WHy is that? You are ignoring 49:3, where the servent is explicitly identified.

I gave over a dozen alternate verses that idenify the servant. the passage above which you can't answer says the servant is nto isreal it says it piont blank loud and clealry. why are you refusing to look at the obvious?

why is your verse "the defiition of who the servant is" and the others arent'? the word is used in all of them?



now this is from the material that I already posted on the dialogical pattern. It goes all the way back to v 43 to show that 49:3 is not a big deal:



b) Is 43: 10


"You are My witnesses," declares the Lord, "And My servant whom I have chosen, In order that you may know and believe Me, And understand that I am He. Before Me there was no God formed, And there will be none after Me." The context of the chapter certainly begins with the Lord addresing Israel. But in course of the address there is a change. "Is 43:10 the Targum renders 'My servant' by 'My servant the Messiah.'(Edersheim 126). But how could it say "so that you may know and believe me and know that I am he?" if it is speaking of the Messiah wouldn't he know? Sure, but it isn't just Messiah, but Messiah and Israel, since he is part of Israel. That phrase speaks to Israel.

You may try to talk all aroudn it, but you start your interpretation AT 49:6, and refuse to read 49:1-5.

49:1 is contradicted by all the other especially the one above. its' not The defition its' just one verse like many others where the term servant is used. But tis not the official defition of the servent of chapter 53 is. Now I've asid every sing time. that is answer to your arugment a direct answer backed by scirptures and you do not eanswer that. you are not extending you are pretending to have an answer but you do not have one.

Until you deal with that, youa re out of context. You are also reading into it things that are not there.

NONONNOO you must deal with it. I have answered it as I just said. i"ve answered it everyt ime. I disproved you nosense with my chart which shows other people being called servent.

the verse here says "you are my servent youk will save isreael."

obviosuy this is the guy in 53. why?becasue he does what that guy does and gues what? he's called 'servant!" and he is celarly not Isreal.

you dealith with it my friend.

[Goat]

Did I take the passage in 50 out of conext? Let's start back at 49


c) 49:6


He says, "It is too small a thing that You should be My Servant To raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved ones of Israel; I will also make You a light of the nations So that My salvation may reach to the end of the earth."

T.

Yes, you did. YOu refuse to look at the passage right in front of it.

WHy is that? You are ignoring 49:3, where the servent is explicitly identified.

I gave over a dozen alternate verses that idenify the servant. the passage above which you can't answer says the servant is nto isreal it says it piont blank loud and clealry. why are you refusing to look at the obvious?

why is your verse "the defiition of who the servant is" and the others arent'? the word is used in all of them?



now this is from the material that I already posted on the dialogical pattern. It goes all the way back to v 43 to show that 49:3 is not a big deal:



b) Is 43: 10


"You are My witnesses," declares the Lord, "And My servant whom I have chosen, In order that you may know and believe Me, And understand that I am He. Before Me there was no God formed, And there will be none after Me." The context of the chapter certainly begins with the Lord addresing Israel. But in course of the address there is a change. "Is 43:10 the Targum renders 'My servant' by 'My servant the Messiah.'(Edersheim 126). But how could it say "so that you may know and believe me and know that I am he?" if it is speaking of the Messiah wouldn't he know? Sure, but it isn't just Messiah, but Messiah and Israel, since he is part of Israel. That phrase speaks to Israel.

You may try to talk all aroudn it, but you start your interpretation AT 49:6, and refuse to read 49:1-5.

49:1 is contradicted by all the other especially the one above. its' not The defition its' just one verse like many others where the term servant is used. But tis not the official defition of the servent of chapter 53 is. Now I've asid every sing time. that is answer to your arugment a direct answer backed by scirptures and you do not eanswer that. you are not extending you are pretending to have an answer but you do not have one.

Until you deal with that, youa re out of context. You are also reading into it things that are not there.

NONONNOO you must deal with it. I have answered it as I just said. i"ve answered it everyt ime. I disproved you nosense with my chart which shows other people being called servent.

the verse here says "you are my servent youk will save isreael."

obviosuy this is the guy in 53. why?becasue he does what that guy does and gues what? he's called 'servant!" and he is celarly not Isreal.

you dealith with it my friend.

Putting things in red and big fonts don't make the matter 'dealt' with.

However, from http://www.messiahtruth.com/isaiah53a.html

I. Introduction



The Book of Isaiah contain four passages commonly known as the Servant Songs: (1) Isaiah 42:1-4, (2) Isaiah 49:1-6, (3) Isaiah 50:4-9, (4) Isaiah 52:13-53:12. Three of these four Servant Songs (#1, #2, #4) explicitly use the Hebrew term , (avdi), My servant[1], while in #3 such terminology does not appear at all. Yet, the description of the subject's characteristics in #3 is so strikingly similar to those of the one to which the other three passages refer as , (avdi), My servant, that it is included in the set of four. These four Servant Songs are considered as passages of exceptional beauty (especially in the Hebrew language) and great religious depth. According to the major Jewish commentaries, it is apparent that three of these Servant Songs also present some difficulties of interpretation since Jewish Sages do not always agree on the identity of the servant in them. The only exception is the Fourth Servant Song (Is 52:13-53:12), commonly referred to as "Isaiah 53", where the Sages all agree on the identity of the servant being the righteous remnant of Israel, henceforth referred to as Israel. Consequently, "Isaiah 53" is not Jewish messianic text.



By contrast, many Christians, particularly evangelical Christian missionaries, consider the Fourth Servant Song to be one of the most important Christian messianic prophecies, a so-called "proof texts", in the Bible. The New Testament, with its many references to "Isaiah 53", provides for them a record of the fulfillment of the prophecy of a suffering and dying Messiah and his eventual return, triumph, and glory. Curiously, though, this is all being believed even though the common reference terms used in the Hebrew Bible for the promised Messiah, such as David, son of David, or king, are conspicuously absent from the text. Moreover, a suffering and dying Messiah is not part of the traditional Jewish messianic paradigm, which describes a Messiah that shows up only once, and one who will succeed in executing the messianic agenda, as it is described in the Hebrew Bible, during his reign as king of a unified Israel.



It is interesting to note that not all Christians hold this view on "Isaiah 53". Some prominent Christian sources agree with the common Jewish perspective that the suffering servant in the Fourth Servant Song is collective Israel, the Jewish people. Namely, Christian Bibles, such as the New Revised Standard Version (NRSV) Bible, The New Jerusalem Bible, and The Oxford Study Bible, identify Israel as the suffering servant of "Isaiah 53".



This essay subjects the Fourth Servant Song to a rigorous analysis, and the viability of the Jewish interpretation is tested by using the teachings of the Hebrew Bible and the historical record. In a subsequent essay, the Christian interpretation will be subjected to a similar process. To help with the analysis, a well-known and widely used methodology from the domain of research and discovery, the Scientific Method, has been adapted to suit the analysis, and is applied to the entire process of validation.



II. What Is the Scientific Method?



In scientific and other disciplines, researchers follow a process known as the Scientific Method, a methodology that usually involves four stages:



First is the Observation stage. The study of any phenomenon must start with the collection of data (observations) and their systematic arrangement.



Second is the Generalization stage. Not all data related to an event can ever be observed, as this would involve an infinite number of observations of the occurrences of a particular phenomenon. It is usually desired to draw conclusions without waiting for future occurrences. Thus, it is assumed that the facts obtained in the previous stage constitute a fair sample, and that a generalized statement about them can be made. This generalized statement is a tentative scientific law, which is yet unproved a hypothesis.



Third is the Verification stage. If the hypothesis is a useful one, likely to become a valid scientific law, it will have a wider range of applications than that covered by the original observations. It can be used as a model from which to predict expected occurrences in this broader realm. This newly deduced information must then be tested in order to determine whether it is, in fact, correct. If the confirmation agrees with the prediction, the hypothesis becomes firmly established as a rule or law.



Fourth and last is the Application stage. Once the Verification stage has been completed and the hypothesis validated, the scientific law can be used to predict, with confidence, future results. These results may then be used to expand the scope of the original observations.



In this study of the Fourth Servant Song, the Observation stage consists of an iterative process that yields the desired fair sample of "data". In the Generalization stage, this sample is used in formulating a hypothesis. The validity of this hypothesis is then tested in the Verification stage, which involves a verse-by-verse analysis of the entire passage. The Application stage of the Scientific Method cannot be adapted to this particular study, since the results obtained apply only to this specific situation and, unlike scientific research, cannot be generally applied to widen the scope of the study.



Clearly, when studying the Hebrew Bible, one is not dealing with observed data from natural or social phenomena that need to be subjected to complex and rigorous statistical testing and analysis for the purpose of research and discovery. However, there is information ("data") contained within the Hebrew Bible, some of which is being misrepresented and misused by Christian apologists and missionaries in promoting their own interpretations. In order to effectively deal with some of these claims, a rigorous approach to the processing of this "data" proves to be helpful. The analysis that follows demonstrates how elements of the Scientific Method can be adapted and, along with a thorough knowledge and understanding of the Hebrew language and the Hebrew Bible, forms a powerful weapon with which to counter and successfully refute the claims made by Christian apologists and missionaries.



Due to its length and detail, the analysis of the Fourth Servant Song is divided into four segments, each of which is separately analyzed, and the results are cumulatively summarized in tabular form at the end of each respective segment.



III. Segment 1 Isaiah 52:13-15



1. The Hebrew Text with Jewish and Christian Translations



Side-by-side English renditions and the Hebrew text of the first portion of the Fourth Servant Song, Isaiah 52:13-15, are displayed in Table III.A-1. The King James Version (KJV) translation identifies cross-referenced passages in the New Testament. [The references are from the New American Standard Bible (NASB). The corresponding passages quoted below the table are from the KJV.]

See the rest of the page for the table and more explaintions.

[Metacrock]

Did I take the passage in 50 out of conext? Let's start back at 49


c) 49:6


He says, "It is too small a thing that You should be My Servant To raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved ones of Israel; I will also make You a light of the nations So that My salvation may reach to the end of the earth."

T.

Yes, you did. YOu refuse to look at the passage right in front of it.

WHy is that? You are ignoring 49:3, where the servent is explicitly identified.

I gave over a dozen alternate verses that idenify the servant. the passage above which you can't answer says the servant is nto isreal it says it piont blank loud and clealry. why are you refusing to look at the obvious?

why is your verse "the defiition of who the servant is" and the others arent'? the word is used in all of them?



now this is from the material that I already posted on the dialogical pattern. It goes all the way back to v 43 to show that 49:3 is not a big deal:



b) Is 43: 10


"You are My witnesses," declares the Lord, "And My servant whom I have chosen, In order that you may know and believe Me, And understand that I am He. Before Me there was no God formed, And there will be none after Me." The context of the chapter certainly begins with the Lord addresing Israel. But in course of the address there is a change. "Is 43:10 the Targum renders 'My servant' by 'My servant the Messiah.'(Edersheim 126). But how could it say "so that you may know and believe me and know that I am he?" if it is speaking of the Messiah wouldn't he know? Sure, but it isn't just Messiah, but Messiah and Israel, since he is part of Israel. That phrase speaks to Israel.

You may try to talk all aroudn it, but you start your interpretation AT 49:6, and refuse to read 49:1-5.

49:1 is contradicted by all the other especially the one above. its' not The defition its' just one verse like many others where the term servant is used. But tis not the official defition of the servent of chapter 53 is. Now I've asid every sing time. that is answer to your arugment a direct answer backed by scirptures and you do not eanswer that. you are not extending you are pretending to have an answer but you do not have one.

Until you deal with that, youa re out of context. You are also reading into it things that are not there.

NONONNOO you must deal with it. I have answered it as I just said. i"ve answered it everyt ime. I disproved you nosense with my chart which shows other people being called servent.

the verse here says "you are my servent youk will save isreael."

obviosuy this is the guy in 53. why?becasue he does what that guy does and gues what? he's called 'servant!" and he is celarly not Isreal.

you dealith with it my friend.

Putting things in red and big fonts don't make the matter 'dealt' with.

you wont ever deal wtih it becauseyou have no answer.



However, from http://www.messiahtruth.com/isaiah53a.html

I. Introduction



The Book of Isaiah contain four passages commonly known as the Servant Songs: (1) Isaiah 42:1-4, (2) Isaiah 49:1-6, (3) Isaiah 50:4-9, (4) Isaiah 52:13-53:12. Three of these four Servant Songs (#1, #2, #4) explicitly use the Hebrew term , (avdi), My servant[1], while in #3 such terminology does not appear at all. Yet, the description of the subject's characteristics in #3 is so strikingly similar to those of the one to which the other three passages refer as , (avdi), My servant, that it is included in the set of four. These four Servant Songs are considered as passages of exceptional beauty (especially in the Hebrew language) and great religious depth. According to the major Jewish commentaries, it is apparent that three of these Servant Songs also present some difficulties of interpretation since Jewish Sages do not always agree on the identity of the servant in them. The only exception is the Fourth Servant Song (Is 52:13-53:12), commonly referred to as "Isaiah 53", where the Sages all agree on the identity of the servant being the righteous remnant of Israel, henceforth referred to as Israel. Consequently, "Isaiah 53" is not Jewish messianic text.

what this and you are ignoring is the fact that throughout the book Isearel has a certain characer. it's weak, cowardly, wayword, sinful, untrustrothy, fights god. throughout the book another figure is said to be groomed to redeem Isreael. ti si this figure who is called "servant" and who is said to be called to redeem Isreael. It makes so much more sense to see him as the redeeming Suffering servant than to see Isreal in that role because Isreal never lives up to the qualiteis in that role.


you don't answer this arugment and the biased un scholarly sites that you choose to reflect your biases don't deal with it either.


the use of the different terms for servant was dealt with in serveral quotes that I posted before. this guy does not deal with them and his information is wrong.

By contrast, many Christians, particularly evangelical Christian missionaries, consider the Fourth Servant Song to be one of the most important Christian messianic prophecies, a so-called "proof texts", in the Bible. The New Testament, with its many references to "Isaiah 53", provides for them a record of the fulfillment of the prophecy of a suffering and dying Messiah and his eventual return, triumph, and glory.

there are really very few references to Is 53 in the NT. It wasn't really appealed to until the turn of the century.

Curiously, though, this is all being believed even though the common reference terms used in the Hebrew Bible for the promised Messiah, such as David, son of David, or king, are conspicuously absent from the text.

NoooOOO they are not! this guy is mistaken. They are very present in chapter 11 which sasy son of David root of Jessey branch of David all such messianich epithets. that tells us we are dealing with the Messiah.

Moreover, a suffering and dying Messiah is not part of the traditional Jewish messianic paradigm, which describes a Messiah that shows up only once, and one who will succeed in executing the messianic agenda, as it is described in the Hebrew Bible, during his reign as king of a unified Israel.

I've quoted 65 Rabbis who say it is. so maybe this guy's wrong, you thinK? what makes him right and the 65 rabbis wrong?

It is interesting to note that not all Christians hold this view on "Isaiah 53". Some prominent Christian sources agree with the common Jewish perspective that the suffering servant in the Fourth Servant Song is collective Israel, the Jewish people. Namely, Christian Bibles, such as the New Revised Standard Version (NRSV) Bible, The New Jerusalem Bible, and The Oxford Study Bible, identify Israel as the suffering servant of "Isaiah 53".

and some christian schoalrs don't beileve in the diety of Chrsit. some don't even Believe in God. those are not the one's I'm interested in. I don't value their opinions because I think if you dont' think Jesus is the divine logos then you are jut missing the point of the faith. so I would not follow peole who miss the point.

This essay subjects the Fourth Servant Song to a rigorous analysis, and the viability of the Jewish interpretation is tested by using the teachings of the Hebrew Bible and the historical record. In a subsequent essay, the Christian interpretation will be subjected to a similar process. To help with the analysis, a well-known and widely used methodology from the domain of research and discovery, the Scientific Method, has been adapted to suit the analysis, and is applied to the entire process of validation.

still not arguing. you are not extending no answer my arguments you are merely spaming. stop spaming and answer my arguments.


how can it say the redeemer is seperate from Isreal if he is isreael?

If the servant is Isreal why does it say

It is nto enough for you to be my servant and redeem Israel? clelary that says these two different things.


It says he's the servant and he's redeeming Israel. so obviously he must be the guy in chapter 53. that just makes sense. He's not Isreal.

If I say to you "it is not enough that you be my freind and give my brohter a ride, I also need money" am I confussing you with my broher? would say "o he's speaking to his brohter." If you give my brother a ride how can you be my brother?

[Goat]

Did I take the passage in 50 out of conext? Let's start back at 49


c) 49:6


He says, "It is too small a thing that You should be My Servant To raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved ones of Israel; I will also make You a light of the nations So that My salvation may reach to the end of the earth."

T.

Yes, you did. YOu refuse to look at the passage right in front of it.

WHy is that? You are ignoring 49:3, where the servent is explicitly identified.

I gave over a dozen alternate verses that idenify the servant. the passage above which you can't answer says the servant is nto isreal it says it piont blank loud and clealry. why are you refusing to look at the obvious?

why is your verse "the defiition of who the servant is" and the others arent'? the word is used in all of them?



now this is from the material that I already posted on the dialogical pattern. It goes all the way back to v 43 to show that 49:3 is not a big deal:



b) Is 43: 10


"You are My witnesses," declares the Lord, "And My servant whom I have chosen, In order that you may know and believe Me, And understand that I am He. Before Me there was no God formed, And there will be none after Me." The context of the chapter certainly begins with the Lord addresing Israel. But in course of the address there is a change. "Is 43:10 the Targum renders 'My servant' by 'My servant the Messiah.'(Edersheim 126). But how could it say "so that you may know and believe me and know that I am he?" if it is speaking of the Messiah wouldn't he know? Sure, but it isn't just Messiah, but Messiah and Israel, since he is part of Israel. That phrase speaks to Israel.

You may try to talk all aroudn it, but you start your interpretation AT 49:6, and refuse to read 49:1-5.

49:1 is contradicted by all the other especially the one above. its' not The defition its' just one verse like many others where the term servant is used. But tis not the official defition of the servent of chapter 53 is. Now I've asid every sing time. that is answer to your arugment a direct answer backed by scirptures and you do not eanswer that. you are not extending you are pretending to have an answer but you do not have one.

Until you deal with that, youa re out of context. You are also reading into it things that are not there.

NONONNOO you must deal with it. I have answered it as I just said. i"ve answered it everyt ime. I disproved you nosense with my chart which shows other people being called servent.

the verse here says "you are my servent youk will save isreael."

obviosuy this is the guy in 53. why?becasue he does what that guy does and gues what? he's called 'servant!" and he is celarly not Isreal.

you dealith with it my friend.

Putting things in red and big fonts don't make the matter 'dealt' with.

you wont ever deal wtih it becauseyou have no answer.



However, from http://www.messiahtruth.com/isaiah53a.html

I. Introduction



The Book of Isaiah contain four passages commonly known as the Servant Songs: (1) Isaiah 42:1-4, (2) Isaiah 49:1-6, (3) Isaiah 50:4-9, (4) Isaiah 52:13-53:12. Three of these four Servant Songs (#1, #2, #4) explicitly use the Hebrew term , (avdi), My servant[1], while in #3 such terminology does not appear at all. Yet, the description of the subject's characteristics in #3 is so strikingly similar to those of the one to which the other three passages refer as , (avdi), My servant, that it is included in the set of four. These four Servant Songs are considered as passages of exceptional beauty (especially in the Hebrew language) and great religious depth. According to the major Jewish commentaries, it is apparent that three of these Servant Songs also present some difficulties of interpretation since Jewish Sages do not always agree on the identity of the servant in them. The only exception is the Fourth Servant Song (Is 52:13-53:12), commonly referred to as "Isaiah 53", where the Sages all agree on the identity of the servant being the righteous remnant of Israel, henceforth referred to as Israel. Consequently, "Isaiah 53" is not Jewish messianic text.

what this and you are ignoring is the fact that throughout the book Isearel has a certain characer. it's weak, cowardly, wayword, sinful, untrustrothy, fights god. throughout the book another figure is said to be groomed to redeem Isreael. ti si this figure who is called "servant" and who is said to be called to redeem Isreael. It makes so much more sense to see him as the redeeming Suffering servant than to see Isreal in that role because Isreal never lives up to the qualiteis in that role.


you don't answer this arugment and the biased un scholarly sites that you choose to reflect your biases don't deal with it either.


the use of the different terms for servant was dealt with in serveral quotes that I posted before. this guy does not deal with them and his information is wrong.

By contrast, many Christians, particularly evangelical Christian missionaries, consider the Fourth Servant Song to be one of the most important Christian messianic prophecies, a so-called "proof texts", in the Bible. The New Testament, with its many references to "Isaiah 53", provides for them a record of the fulfillment of the prophecy of a suffering and dying Messiah and his eventual return, triumph, and glory.

there are really very few references to Is 53 in the NT. It wasn't really appealed to until the turn of the century.

Curiously, though, this is all being believed even though the common reference terms used in the Hebrew Bible for the promised Messiah, such as David, son of David, or king, are conspicuously absent from the text.

NoooOOO they are not! this guy is mistaken. They are very present in chapter 11 which sasy son of David root of Jessey branch of David all such messianich epithets. that tells us we are dealing with the Messiah.

Moreover, a suffering and dying Messiah is not part of the traditional Jewish messianic paradigm, which describes a Messiah that shows up only once, and one who will succeed in executing the messianic agenda, as it is described in the Hebrew Bible, during his reign as king of a unified Israel.

I've quoted 65 Rabbis who say it is. so maybe this guy's wrong, you thinK? what makes him right and the 65 rabbis wrong?

It is interesting to note that not all Christians hold this view on "Isaiah 53". Some prominent Christian sources agree with the common Jewish perspective that the suffering servant in the Fourth Servant Song is collective Israel, the Jewish people. Namely, Christian Bibles, such as the New Revised Standard Version (NRSV) Bible, The New Jerusalem Bible, and The Oxford Study Bible, identify Israel as the suffering servant of "Isaiah 53".

and some christian schoalrs don't beileve in the diety of Chrsit. some don't even Believe in God. those are not the one's I'm interested in. I don't value their opinions because I think if you dont' think Jesus is the divine logos then you are jut missing the point of the faith. so I would not follow peole who miss the point.

This essay subjects the Fourth Servant Song to a rigorous analysis, and the viability of the Jewish interpretation is tested by using the teachings of the Hebrew Bible and the historical record. In a subsequent essay, the Christian interpretation will be subjected to a similar process. To help with the analysis, a well-known and widely used methodology from the domain of research and discovery, the Scientific Method, has been adapted to suit the analysis, and is applied to the entire process of validation.

still not arguing. you are not extending no answer my arguments you are merely spaming. stop spaming and answer my arguments.


how can it say the redeemer is seperate from Isreal if he is isreael?

If the servant is Isreal why does it say

It is nto enough for you to be my servant and redeem Israel? clelary that says these two different things.


It says he's the servant and he's redeeming Israel. so obviously he must be the guy in chapter 53. that just makes sense. He's not Isreal.

If I say to you "it is not enough that you be my freind and give my brohter a ride, I also need money" am I confussing you with my broher? would say "o he's speaking to his brohter." If you give my brother a ride how can you be my brother?

Wow, you say you quoted 65 RABBI's over the last 2000 years who think it was a messanic passage.

I bet most were in the middle ages. And, I bet you haven't look at each and every one of them in context either.

And do you want to know that one characterisic that ALL those 65 rabbi's had in common. Not ONE thought that the passage refered to Jesus.

[Metacrock]

Goat Wow, you say you quoted 65 RABBI's over the last 2000 years who think it was a messanic passage.I bet most were in the middle ages. And, I bet you haven't look at each and every one of them in context either.

(1) what if they are mostly in the middle ages? why would that make them wrong?

(2) I don't know that they are. they are from Targum, Talmud, Hosidic, Dead Sea scrolls, all over. I qutoe modern day Rabbis too.

And do you want to know that one characterisic that ALL those 65 rabbi's had in common. Not ONE thought that the passage refered to Jesus.

that is certainly not true! I know of at least one who did. Probably others. in 2000 an article was purchased as an ad in an Isreaeli news paper where 70 Rabbis singed that they believe Jesus is the Messiah.



now are you going to expalin or not? you think I forgot?

It is not enough that you be my servant and redeem Israel means he cannot be Israel. He has to be the servant of 53 and he is not isreal!

[juliod]

I'll also point out that screaming your answers does not make them any more convincing.

I think you should probably look at that messiahtruth web page. The "servant" can be several people throughout the OT, but he is never identified as Jesus.

In fact, the "messiah" at one point in Isaiah is identified as Cyrus II. What do christians make of that?

In any case, you have a Big Problem. If christianity is (as I believe) made up from snippets of OT scripture, all you are doing here is reversing the process.

DanZ

[Goat]

Goat Wow, you say you quoted 65 RABBI's over the last 2000 years who think it was a messanic passage.I bet most were in the middle ages. And, I bet you haven't look at each and every one of them in context either.

(1) what if they are mostly in the middle ages? why would that make them wrong?

(2) I don't know that they are. they are from Targum, Talmud, Hosidic, Dead Sea scrolls, all over. I qutoe modern day Rabbis too.

And do you want to know that one characterisic that ALL those 65 rabbi's had in common. Not ONE thought that the passage refered to Jesus.

that is certainly not true! I know of at least four who did. Probably others. in 2000 an article was purchased as an ad in an Isreaeli news paper where 70 Rabbis singed that they believe Jesus is the Messiah.



now are you going to expalin or not? you think I forgot?

It is not enough that you be my servant and redeem Israel means he cannot be Israel. He has to be the servant of 53 and he is not isreal!

SHow me a quote from any one of those Rabbi's that say it is isreal.

Yes, there have been some rabbi's (rambam even) that thought that the passage
was messanic, (Mainly in the middle age period).

But, not one thought it was jesus.

And, I would like to see your reference to the DDS that say it was messanic. That would be interesting.

I will point out both Justin Martr, and Origien, when using Isaiah 53 to try to convert the jews, mentioned the person they were trying to convince pointed out that it was the Nation of Israel, not the Messiah.

[Metacrock]

I'll also point out that screaming your answers does not make them any more convincing.

they put the large button in for a reason. It's emphasis. you can't ignore it.

I think you should probably look at that messiahtruth web page. The "servant" can be several people throughout the OT, but he is never identified as Jesus.

of course he's not, the site is done by christianity haters. so why should he be?

so what? what does that prove? none of the candidates fill the bill.

In fact, the "messiah" at one point in Isaiah is identified as Cyrus II. What do christians make of that?

Messiah is a versitile term. It doesn't just apply to this one guy. The passage is not saying that Cyrus is "The Messiah" who is promised to redeem Israel.

In any case, you have a Big Problem. If christianity is (as I believe) made up from snippets of OT scripture, all you are doing here is reversing the process

.


since it began as a Jewish sect what else would it be made up form? Reversing the process is just valid deoncstive methology to understand what it's about.



[/quote]