Isn't the Book of Revelation just a fable and not literal?

[polonius]

http://www.usccb.org/bible/revelation/0

Introduction to Revelation " New American Bible Revised Edition

This much, however, is certain: symbolic descriptions are not to be taken as literal descriptions, nor is the symbolism meant to be pictured realistically. One would find it difficult and repulsive to visualize a lamb with seven horns and seven eyes; yet Jesus Christ is described in precisely such words (Rev 5:6). The author used these images to suggest Christs universal (seven) power (horns) and knowledge (eyes). A significant feature of apocalyptic writing is the use of symbolic colors, metals, garments (Rev 1:13"16; 3:18; 4:4; 6:1"8; 17:4; 19:8), and numbers (four signifies the world, six imperfection, seven totality or perfection, twelve Israels tribes or the apostles, one thousand immensity). Finally the vindictive language in the book (Rev 6:9"10; 18:1"19:4) is also to be understood symbolically and not literally. The cries for vengeance on the lips of Christian martyrs that sound so harsh are in fact literary devices the author employed to evoke in the reader and hearer a feeling of horror for apostasy and rebellion that will be severely punished by God.

[showme]

http://www.usccb.org/bible/revelation/0

Introduction to Revelation " New American Bible Revised Edition

This much, however, is certain: symbolic descriptions are not to be taken as literal descriptions, nor is the symbolism meant to be pictured realistically. One would find it difficult and repulsive to visualize a lamb with seven horns and seven eyes; yet Jesus Christ is described in precisely such words (Rev 5:6). The author used these images to suggest Christs universal (seven) power (horns) and knowledge (eyes). A significant feature of apocalyptic writing is the use of symbolic colors, metals, garments (Rev 1:13"16; 3:18; 4:4; 6:1"8; 17:4; 19:8), and numbers (four signifies the world, six imperfection, seven totality or perfection, twelve Israels tribes or the apostles, one thousand immensity). Finally the vindictive language in the book (Rev 6:9"10; 18:1"19:4) is also to be understood symbolically and not literally. The cries for vengeance on the lips of Christian martyrs that sound so harsh are in fact literary devices the author employed to evoke in the reader and hearer a feeling of horror for apostasy and rebellion that will be severely punished by God.

Hate to say it, but I think you will be caught unawares when the "fig tree" puts forth its leaves (Mt 24:32). You seem to mix up "vengeance" with the justice and "wrath" of God. A good example of what is coming up per the "awesome day of the LORD" (Joel 2:31-32), where you will have "survivors", is found in Revelation 9:18, whereas 'a third of mankind... was killed". The term "many" can be a literal device, the term "a third of mankind", is quite specific.

The 7 horns and 7 eyes are with respect to the 7 angels of the 7 churches. (Rev 1:20) & (Zech 4:2-10)

A third of mankind might seem specific, but it is not literal. Most of the numbers have other meanings, such as 7 signifying "divinely determined completeness (as to Jehovah's purposes or sometimes to Satan's)." (Rev.1:4,12,16; 4:5,6; 10:3,4; 12:3)

Other numbers:

3 Denotes emphasis; also indicates intensity. (Rev.4:8; 8:13; 16:13,19)

6 Signifies imperfection, something not normal, monstrous. (Rev.13:18; see 2 Samuel 21:20)

10 Signifies completeness in a physical way, as to things on earth. (Rev.2:10; 12:3; 13:1; 17:3,12,16)

12 Signifies a divinely constituted organization either in the heavens or on the earth. (Rev. 7:5-8; 12:1; 21:12,16; 22:2)


However, some numbers are to be understood as literal, depending on the context. (Rev.7:4,9; 11:2,3; 12:6,14; 17:3,9-11; 20:3-5)

Au Contraire. 7 also represents the heads of the beast. 3 also represents the triad of the pagan gods. 10 also represents the horns of the 8th head of the beast. 12 also represents the sons of Ishmael and Esau.

[marco]

Other numbers:

3 Denotes emphasis; also indicates intensity. (Rev.4:8; 8:13; 16:13,19)

6 Signifies imperfection, something not normal, monstrous. (Rev.13:18; see 2 Samuel 21:20)

10 Signifies completeness in a physical way, as to things on earth. (Rev.2:10; 12:3; 13:1; 17:3,12,16)

12 Signifies a divinely constituted organization either in the heavens or on the earth. (Rev. 7:5-8; 12:1; 21:12,16; 22:2)


However, some numbers are to be understood as literal, depending on the context. (Rev.7:4,9; 11:2,3; 12:6,14; 17:3,9-11; 20:3-5)

THREE: The Hunting of the Snark: What I tell you three times is true. Comic story.

SIX: The first PERFECT number; its factors are 1, 2 and 3 and they sum to 6. There is nothing monstrous about perfection, except in fairy tales.

TEN: We use the decimal system but the Babylonian sexagesimal system had many advantages. The usefulness of ten is that it corresponds to the number of fingers we have.

TWELVE: We can bury ourselves in superstition further by pointing out the twelve signs of the Zodiac, useful in astrology.

All this magical association surely has no place in a reasonable discussion. If we are reduced to accepting magical properties of some numbers then we have lost all arguments. Take 37 and the coming of age, 18, where of course sin becomes a big temptation. Multiply them and you get the number of the beast. Amazing!

[onewithhim]

http://www.usccb.org/bible/revelation/0

Introduction to Revelation " New American Bible Revised Edition

This much, however, is certain: symbolic descriptions are not to be taken as literal descriptions, nor is the symbolism meant to be pictured realistically. One would find it difficult and repulsive to visualize a lamb with seven horns and seven eyes; yet Jesus Christ is described in precisely such words (Rev 5:6). The author used these images to suggest Christs universal (seven) power (horns) and knowledge (eyes). A significant feature of apocalyptic writing is the use of symbolic colors, metals, garments (Rev 1:13"16; 3:18; 4:4; 6:1"8; 17:4; 19:8), and numbers (four signifies the world, six imperfection, seven totality or perfection, twelve Israels tribes or the apostles, one thousand immensity). Finally the vindictive language in the book (Rev 6:9"10; 18:1"19:4) is also to be understood symbolically and not literally. The cries for vengeance on the lips of Christian martyrs that sound so harsh are in fact literary devices the author employed to evoke in the reader and hearer a feeling of horror for apostasy and rebellion that will be severely punished by God.

Hate to say it, but I think you will be caught unawares when the "fig tree" puts forth its leaves (Mt 24:32). You seem to mix up "vengeance" with the justice and "wrath" of God. A good example of what is coming up per the "awesome day of the LORD" (Joel 2:31-32), where you will have "survivors", is found in Revelation 9:18, whereas 'a third of mankind... was killed". The term "many" can be a literal device, the term "a third of mankind", is quite specific.

The 7 horns and 7 eyes are with respect to the 7 angels of the 7 churches. (Rev 1:20) & (Zech 4:2-10)

A third of mankind might seem specific, but it is not literal. Most of the numbers have other meanings, such as 7 signifying "divinely determined completeness (as to Jehovah's purposes or sometimes to Satan's)." (Rev.1:4,12,16; 4:5,6; 10:3,4; 12:3)

Other numbers:

3 Denotes emphasis; also indicates intensity. (Rev.4:8; 8:13; 16:13,19)

6 Signifies imperfection, something not normal, monstrous. (Rev.13:18; see 2 Samuel 21:20)

10 Signifies completeness in a physical way, as to things on earth. (Rev.2:10; 12:3; 13:1; 17:3,12,16)

12 Signifies a divinely constituted organization either in the heavens or on the earth. (Rev. 7:5-8; 12:1; 21:12,16; 22:2)


However, some numbers are to be understood as literal, depending on the context. (Rev.7:4,9; 11:2,3; 12:6,14; 17:3,9-11; 20:3-5)

Au Contraire. 7 also represents the heads of the beast. 3 also represents the triad of the pagan gods. 10 also represents the horns of the 8th head of the beast. 12 also represents the sons of Ishmael and Esau.

We're talking about what the numbers mean to students of the Bible, and those appreciating what those numbers mean. You go back to speaking of the non-literal entities associated with those numbers---the 7 heads of the beast, etc. What do the 7 heads mean? That is the question. 7 signifies divinely determined completeness; therefore the 7 heads would mean the COMPLETE governmental empires of the world.

[onewithhim]

Other numbers:

3 Denotes emphasis; also indicates intensity. (Rev.4:8; 8:13; 16:13,19)

6 Signifies imperfection, something not normal, monstrous. (Rev.13:18; see 2 Samuel 21:20)

10 Signifies completeness in a physical way, as to things on earth. (Rev.2:10; 12:3; 13:1; 17:3,12,16)

12 Signifies a divinely constituted organization either in the heavens or on the earth. (Rev. 7:5-8; 12:1; 21:12,16; 22:2)


However, some numbers are to be understood as literal, depending on the context. (Rev.7:4,9; 11:2,3; 12:6,14; 17:3,9-11; 20:3-5)

THREE: The Hunting of the Snark: What I tell you three times is true. Comic story.

SIX: The first PERFECT number; its factors are 1, 2 and 3 and they sum to 6. There is nothing monstrous about perfection, except in fairy tales.

TEN: We use the decimal system but the Babylonian sexagesimal system had many advantages. The usefulness of ten is that it corresponds to the number of fingers we have.

TWELVE: We can bury ourselves in superstition further by pointing out the twelve signs of the Zodiac, useful in astrology.

All this magical association surely has no place in a reasonable discussion. If we are reduced to accepting magical properties of some numbers then we have lost all arguments. Take 37 and the coming of age, 18, where of course sin becomes a big temptation. Multiply them and you get the number of the beast. Amazing!

In Bible talk, 6 does not denote perfection. Just the opposite. That is why the Beast has a number (given by God) 666. The Beast (worldly governments) is less than perfect, and that fact is emphasized by writing the number three times. 666. Worldly governments fall WAY short of perfection.

The numbers mean other things to non-spiritual people. We are talking about people who appreciate the Bible and who love Jehovah.

[showme]

http://www.usccb.org/bible/revelation/0

Introduction to Revelation " New American Bible Revised Edition

This much, however, is certain: symbolic descriptions are not to be taken as literal descriptions, nor is the symbolism meant to be pictured realistically. One would find it difficult and repulsive to visualize a lamb with seven horns and seven eyes; yet Jesus Christ is described in precisely such words (Rev 5:6). The author used these images to suggest Christs universal (seven) power (horns) and knowledge (eyes). A significant feature of apocalyptic writing is the use of symbolic colors, metals, garments (Rev 1:13"16; 3:18; 4:4; 6:1"8; 17:4; 19:8), and numbers (four signifies the world, six imperfection, seven totality or perfection, twelve Israels tribes or the apostles, one thousand immensity). Finally the vindictive language in the book (Rev 6:9"10; 18:1"19:4) is also to be understood symbolically and not literally. The cries for vengeance on the lips of Christian martyrs that sound so harsh are in fact literary devices the author employed to evoke in the reader and hearer a feeling of horror for apostasy and rebellion that will be severely punished by God.

Hate to say it, but I think you will be caught unawares when the "fig tree" puts forth its leaves (Mt 24:32). You seem to mix up "vengeance" with the justice and "wrath" of God. A good example of what is coming up per the "awesome day of the LORD" (Joel 2:31-32), where you will have "survivors", is found in Revelation 9:18, whereas 'a third of mankind... was killed". The term "many" can be a literal device, the term "a third of mankind", is quite specific.

The 7 horns and 7 eyes are with respect to the 7 angels of the 7 churches. (Rev 1:20) & (Zech 4:2-10)

A third of mankind might seem specific, but it is not literal. Most of the numbers have other meanings, such as 7 signifying "divinely determined completeness (as to Jehovah's purposes or sometimes to Satan's)." (Rev.1:4,12,16; 4:5,6; 10:3,4; 12:3)

Other numbers:

3 Denotes emphasis; also indicates intensity. (Rev.4:8; 8:13; 16:13,19)

6 Signifies imperfection, something not normal, monstrous. (Rev.13:18; see 2 Samuel 21:20)

10 Signifies completeness in a physical way, as to things on earth. (Rev.2:10; 12:3; 13:1; 17:3,12,16)

12 Signifies a divinely constituted organization either in the heavens or on the earth. (Rev. 7:5-8; 12:1; 21:12,16; 22:2)


However, some numbers are to be understood as literal, depending on the context. (Rev.7:4,9; 11:2,3; 12:6,14; 17:3,9-11; 20:3-5)

Au Contraire. 7 also represents the heads of the beast. 3 also represents the triad of the pagan gods. 10 also represents the horns of the 8th head of the beast. 12 also represents the sons of Ishmael and Esau.

We're talking about what the numbers mean to students of the Bible, and those appreciating what those numbers mean. You go back to speaking of the non-literal entities associated with those numbers---the 7 heads of the beast, etc. What do the 7 heads mean? That is the question. 7 signifies divinely determined completeness; therefore the 7 heads would mean the COMPLETE governmental empires of the world.

The beast may have had 7 heads, but he was not complete without his eighth head, the one that was, is not and is the eighth. (Rev 17:11). And those heads only represented the governments dealing with Judah, from the time of the Babylonian episode till the present. They didn't include the governments which dealt with the house of Israel.

[onewithhim]

http://www.usccb.org/bible/revelation/0

Introduction to Revelation " New American Bible Revised Edition

This much, however, is certain: symbolic descriptions are not to be taken as literal descriptions, nor is the symbolism meant to be pictured realistically. One would find it difficult and repulsive to visualize a lamb with seven horns and seven eyes; yet Jesus Christ is described in precisely such words (Rev 5:6). The author used these images to suggest Christs universal (seven) power (horns) and knowledge (eyes). A significant feature of apocalyptic writing is the use of symbolic colors, metals, garments (Rev 1:13"16; 3:18; 4:4; 6:1"8; 17:4; 19:8), and numbers (four signifies the world, six imperfection, seven totality or perfection, twelve Israels tribes or the apostles, one thousand immensity). Finally the vindictive language in the book (Rev 6:9"10; 18:1"19:4) is also to be understood symbolically and not literally. The cries for vengeance on the lips of Christian martyrs that sound so harsh are in fact literary devices the author employed to evoke in the reader and hearer a feeling of horror for apostasy and rebellion that will be severely punished by God.

Hate to say it, but I think you will be caught unawares when the "fig tree" puts forth its leaves (Mt 24:32). You seem to mix up "vengeance" with the justice and "wrath" of God. A good example of what is coming up per the "awesome day of the LORD" (Joel 2:31-32), where you will have "survivors", is found in Revelation 9:18, whereas 'a third of mankind... was killed". The term "many" can be a literal device, the term "a third of mankind", is quite specific.

The 7 horns and 7 eyes are with respect to the 7 angels of the 7 churches. (Rev 1:20) & (Zech 4:2-10)

A third of mankind might seem specific, but it is not literal. Most of the numbers have other meanings, such as 7 signifying "divinely determined completeness (as to Jehovah's purposes or sometimes to Satan's)." (Rev.1:4,12,16; 4:5,6; 10:3,4; 12:3)

Other numbers:

3 Denotes emphasis; also indicates intensity. (Rev.4:8; 8:13; 16:13,19)

6 Signifies imperfection, something not normal, monstrous. (Rev.13:18; see 2 Samuel 21:20)

10 Signifies completeness in a physical way, as to things on earth. (Rev.2:10; 12:3; 13:1; 17:3,12,16)

12 Signifies a divinely constituted organization either in the heavens or on the earth. (Rev. 7:5-8; 12:1; 21:12,16; 22:2)


However, some numbers are to be understood as literal, depending on the context. (Rev.7:4,9; 11:2,3; 12:6,14; 17:3,9-11; 20:3-5)

Au Contraire. 7 also represents the heads of the beast. 3 also represents the triad of the pagan gods. 10 also represents the horns of the 8th head of the beast. 12 also represents the sons of Ishmael and Esau.

We're talking about what the numbers mean to students of the Bible, and those appreciating what those numbers mean. You go back to speaking of the non-literal entities associated with those numbers---the 7 heads of the beast, etc. What do the 7 heads mean? That is the question. 7 signifies divinely determined completeness; therefore the 7 heads would mean the COMPLETE governmental empires of the world.

The beast may have had 7 heads, but he was not complete without his eighth head, the one that was, is not and is the eighth. (Rev 17:11). And those heads only represented the governments dealing with Judah, from the time of the Babylonian episode till the present. They didn't include the governments which dealt with the house of Israel.

Oh, the beast was complete, with 7 heads. The 8th head was merely the beast's reflection, if you will---an organization that represented those governments of men, known to us today as the United Nations. It was, was not, and then was again. (League of Nations, then disbanded, then rose again as the U.N.) You are way behind when you limit those prophecies to Judah of old.

[polonius]

NUMBERS 20: 14
14 And Moses sent messengers from Kadesh unto the king of Edom,

GENESIS 36:31 These are the kings who reigned in the land of Edom before any king reigned over the Israelites.

Note: The first king of Isreal was Saul c. 1000 BC. So we can conclude that this story was written sometime after 1000 BC. Probably between 800 and 700 BC. Not during the time of Moses.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moses#Historicity

The scholarly consensus is that the figure of Moses is legendary, and not historical,[3] although a "Moses-like figure may have existed somewhere in the southern Transjordan in the mid-late 13th century B.C."[32] Certainly no Egyptian sources mention Moses or the events of Exodus-Deuteronomy, nor has any archaeological evidence been discovered in Egypt or the Sinai wilderness to support the story in which he is the central figure.[33]

The tradition of Moses as a lawgiver and culture hero of the Israelites may go back to the 8th and 7th-century BCE sources of the Deuteronomist,

[onewithhim]

NUMBERS 20: 14
14 And Moses sent messengers from Kadesh unto the king of Edom,

GENESIS 36:31 These are the kings who reigned in the land of Edom before any king reigned over the Israelites.

Note: The first king of Isreal was Saul c. 1000 BC. So we can conclude that this story was written sometime after 1000 BC. Probably between 800 and 700 BC. Not during the time of Moses.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moses#Historicity

The scholarly consensus is that the figure of Moses is legendary, and not historical,[3] although a "Moses-like figure may have existed somewhere in the southern Transjordan in the mid-late 13th century B.C."[32] Certainly no Egyptian sources mention Moses or the events of Exodus-Deuteronomy, nor has any archaeological evidence been discovered in Egypt or the Sinai wilderness to support the story in which he is the central figure.[33]

The tradition of Moses as a lawgiver and culture hero of the Israelites may go back to the 8th and 7th-century BCE sources of the Deuteronomist,

I'll side with Jesus on this. He thought of Moses as a real person, as described in the Hebrew Scriptures. I have also seen evidence that the Israelites were in Egypt and even possibly around 1500 BC.

[polonius]

Onewithhim posted:

I'll side with Jesus on this. He thought of Moses as a real person, as described in the Hebrew Scriptures. I have also seen evidence that the Israelites were in Egypt and even possibly around 1500 BC.

RESPONSE What evidenced did Jesus present that causes you to side with him? Keep in mind, the Gospels were written between 70 and 95 AD after Jesus death. That would be 40 or longer followingthe time of Jesus. The authors were not witnesses, hence the errors and contradictions. But they are nice stories. Still, I prefer the facts of history.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Exodu ... ity_debate

Archaeology

A century of research by archaeologists and Egyptologists has found no evidence which can be directly related to the Exodus captivity and the escape and travels through the wilderness,[38] and archaeologists generally agree that the Israelites had Canaanite origins.[39]The culture of the earliest Israelite settlements is Canaanite, their cult objects are those of the Canaanite god El, the pottery remains are in the Canaanite tradition, and the alphabet used is early Canaanite.[40] Almost the sole marker distinguishing the "Israelite" villages from Canaanite sites is an absence of pig bones, although whether even this is an ethnic marker or is due to other factors remains a matter of dispute.[40]
Killebrew 2005, p. 176. Killebrew, Anne E. (2005). Biblical Peoples and Ethnicity. Society of Biblical Literature. ISBN 9781589830974.

Answer by Dick Harfield

The proof of Moses' existence should be in the numerous Egyptian records that have been found by archaeologists, yet no such proof has been found. It is inconceivable that the Egyptians could have sufferred the great plagues that Moses brought upon them, yet leave no written record that even hinted of economic or social hardship. It is inconceivable that the Egyptains could lose millions of slaves, much of their jewellery, gold and silver, then an entire army in pursuit of the Israelites, then only leave records that demonstrated continued, uninterupted prosperity and power.

http://www.answers.com/Q/Is_there_any_p ... es_existed

[Checkpoint]

[Replying to post 34 by onewithhim]

3 Denotes emphasis; also indicates intensity. (Rev.4:8; 8:13; 16:13,19)

6 Signifies imperfection, something not normal, monstrous. (Rev.13:18; see 2 Samuel 21:20)

10 Signifies completeness in a physical way, as to things on earth. (Rev.2:10; 12:3; 13:1; 17:3,12,16)

It follows that 1000 signifies completeness emphasised (10x10x10).

Good observation. And 144,000 shows completeness emphasized (12 X 12).

Yes, but not, however, just 12x12, but rather, 12x12x10x10.