Isn't the Book of Revelation just a fable and not literal?

[polonius]

http://www.usccb.org/bible/revelation/0

Introduction to Revelation " New American Bible Revised Edition

This much, however, is certain: symbolic descriptions are not to be taken as literal descriptions, nor is the symbolism meant to be pictured realistically. One would find it difficult and repulsive to visualize a lamb with seven horns and seven eyes; yet Jesus Christ is described in precisely such words (Rev 5:6). The author used these images to suggest Christs universal (seven) power (horns) and knowledge (eyes). A significant feature of apocalyptic writing is the use of symbolic colors, metals, garments (Rev 1:13"16; 3:18; 4:4; 6:1"8; 17:4; 19:8), and numbers (four signifies the world, six imperfection, seven totality or perfection, twelve Israels tribes or the apostles, one thousand immensity). Finally the vindictive language in the book (Rev 6:9"10; 18:1"19:4) is also to be understood symbolically and not literally. The cries for vengeance on the lips of Christian martyrs that sound so harsh are in fact literary devices the author employed to evoke in the reader and hearer a feeling of horror for apostasy and rebellion that will be severely punished by God.

[Checkpoint]

[Replying to post 34 by onewithhim]

However, some numbers are to be understood as literal, depending on the context. (Rev.7:4,9; 11:2,3; 12:6,14; 17:3,9-11; 20:3-5)

The context of the thousand years and the 144,000 leads me to conclude that neither of those numbers are literal.

[onewithhim]

[Replying to post 34 by onewithhim]

However, some numbers are to be understood as literal, depending on the context. (Rev.7:4,9; 11:2,3; 12:6,14; 17:3,9-11; 20:3-5)

The context of the thousand years and the 144,000 leads me to conclude that neither of those numbers are literal.

OK. Fair enough. I have to say, though, that the context of those numbers leads me to believe that they are literal.

[onewithhim]

[Replying to post 34 by onewithhim]

3 Denotes emphasis; also indicates intensity. (Rev.4:8; 8:13; 16:13,19)

6 Signifies imperfection, something not normal, monstrous. (Rev.13:18; see 2 Samuel 21:20)

10 Signifies completeness in a physical way, as to things on earth. (Rev.2:10; 12:3; 13:1; 17:3,12,16)

It follows that 1000 signifies completeness emphasised (10x10x10).

Good observation. And 144,000 shows completeness emphasized (12 X 12).

Yes, but not, however, just 12x12, but rather, 12x12x10x10.

You are exactly right.

[onewithhim]

Onewithhim posted:

I'll side with Jesus on this. He thought of Moses as a real person, as described in the Hebrew Scriptures. I have also seen evidence that the Israelites were in Egypt and even possibly around 1500 BC.

RESPONSE What evidenced did Jesus present that causes you to side with him? Keep in mind, the Gospels were written between 70 and 95 AD after Jesus death. That would be 40 or longer followingthe time of Jesus. The authors were not witnesses, hence the errors and contradictions. But they are nice stories. Still, I prefer the facts of history.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Exodu ... ity_debate

Archaeology

A century of research by archaeologists and Egyptologists has found no evidence which can be directly related to the Exodus captivity and the escape and travels through the wilderness,[38] and archaeologists generally agree that the Israelites had Canaanite origins.[39]The culture of the earliest Israelite settlements is Canaanite, their cult objects are those of the Canaanite god El, the pottery remains are in the Canaanite tradition, and the alphabet used is early Canaanite.[40] Almost the sole marker distinguishing the "Israelite" villages from Canaanite sites is an absence of pig bones, although whether even this is an ethnic marker or is due to other factors remains a matter of dispute.[40]
Killebrew 2005, p. 176. Killebrew, Anne E. (2005). Biblical Peoples and Ethnicity. Society of Biblical Literature. ISBN 9781589830974.

Answer by Dick Harfield

The proof of Moses' existence should be in the numerous Egyptian records that have been found by archaeologists, yet no such proof has been found. It is inconceivable that the Egyptians could have sufferred the great plagues that Moses brought upon them, yet leave no written record that even hinted of economic or social hardship. It is inconceivable that the Egyptains could lose millions of slaves, much of their jewellery, gold and silver, then an entire army in pursuit of the Israelites, then only leave records that demonstrated continued, uninterupted prosperity and power.

http://www.answers.com/Q/Is_there_any_p ... es_existed

Jesus said that we must have faith, and I do have faith in him that he actually IS "the way, the truth and the life." There are many reasons why I believe that he really is the Son of God and that he died for our sins. I think we have discussed these things here on these threads. So when he says something, as recorded by his Apostles and others, I tend to believe him.

"Jesus said to him [Thomas]: 'Because you have seen me have you believed? Happy are those who do not see and yet believe.'" (John 20:29)

[Checkpoint]

[Replying to post 34 by onewithhim]

However, some numbers are to be understood as literal, depending on the context. (Rev.7:4,9; 11:2,3; 12:6,14; 17:3,9-11; 20:3-5)

The context of the thousand years and the 144,000 leads me to conclude that neither of those numbers are literal.

OK. Fair enough. I have to say, though, that the context of those numbers leads me to believe that they are literal.

Each to their own, I guess.

Completeness emphasised we do agree on.

That would surely indicate a complete period of time/a complete number of (spiritual) Israelites.

An unknown period of time that makes up an age, and an unknown number that will eventually comprise the Israel of God.

[Checkpoint]

[Replying to post 34 by onewithhim]

3 Denotes emphasis; also indicates intensity. (Rev.4:8; 8:13; 16:13,19)

6 Signifies imperfection, something not normal, monstrous. (Rev.13:18; see 2 Samuel 21:20)

10 Signifies completeness in a physical way, as to things on earth. (Rev.2:10; 12:3; 13:1; 17:3,12,16)

It follows that 1000 signifies completeness emphasised (10x10x10).

Good observation. And 144,000 shows completeness emphasized (12 X 12).

Yes, but not, however, just 12x12, but rather, 12x12x10x10.

You are exactly right.

I do hit the bullseye now and again!

All Israel, Jews inwardly, all who are sealed when the age of grace ends.

[polonius]

Onewithhim posted:

Jesus said that we must have faith, and I do have faith in him that he actually IS "the way, the truth and the life." There are many reasons why I believe that he really is the Son of God and that he died for our sins. I think we have discussed these things here on these threads. So when he says something, as recorded by his Apostles and others, I tend to believe him.

"Jesus said to him [Thomas]: 'Because you have seen me have you believed? Happy are those who do not see and yet believe.'" (John 20:29)

RESPONSE: Jesus said???? Precisely what verifiable evidence do you have that Jesus actually said this? How many witnesses reported this? Also note that whoever wrote "John's Gospel" did so in 95 AD or later. Jesus died in about 30 A.D.

Excerpted from A Concise History of the Catholic Church
By Father Thomas Bokenkotter, SS

"The Gospels were not meant to be a historical or biographical account of Jesus. They were written to convert unbelievers to faith in Jesus as the Messiah of God, risen and living now in his church and coming again to judge all men. Their authors did not deliberately invent or falsify facts about Jesus, but they were not primarily concerned with historical accuracy. They readily included material drawn from the Christian communities' experience of the risen Jesus. Words, for instance, were put in the mouth of Jesus and stories were told about him which, though not historical in the strict sense, nevertheless, in the minds of the evangelists, fittingly expressed the real meaning and intent of Jesus as faith had come to perceive him. For this reason, scholars have come to make a distinction between the Jesus of history and the Christ of faith."

[polonius]

Onewithhim posted:

Jesus said that we must have faith, and I do have faith in him that he actually IS "the way, the truth and the life." There are many reasons why I believe that he really is the Son of God and that he died for our sins. I think we have discussed these things here on these threads. So when he says something, as recorded by his Apostles and others, I tend to believe him.

"Jesus said to him [Thomas]: 'Because you have seen me have you believed? Happy are those who do not see and yet believe.'" (John 20:29)

https://ehrmanblog.org/jesus-writes-letter-members/

I only recently bought Eusebius Ecclesiastical History and have flipped through it. I was shocked to see in Book 1, Chapter 13, a supposed letter from Jesus to King Agbarus!
In his reply, Jesus blesses Abgar for believing without seeing (an allusion to John 20:29), but informs the king that he cannot come because he needs to fulfill his mission, that is, by being crucified. After his ascension, however, he will send an apostle to heal the king.

Do you believe that Jesus actually wrote this letter?

[showme]

Onewithhim posted:

Jesus said that we must have faith, and I do have faith in him that he actually IS "the way, the truth and the life." There are many reasons why I believe that he really is the Son of God and that he died for our sins. I think we have discussed these things here on these threads. So when he says something, as recorded by his Apostles and others, I tend to believe him.

"Jesus said to him [Thomas]: 'Because you have seen me have you believed? Happy are those who do not see and yet believe.'" (John 20:29)

https://ehrmanblog.org/jesus-writes-letter-members/

I only recently bought Eusebius Ecclesiastical History and have flipped through it. I was shocked to see in Book 1, Chapter 13, a supposed letter from Jesus to King Agbarus!
In his reply, Jesus blesses Abgar for believing without seeing (an allusion to John 20:29), but informs the king that he cannot come because he needs to fulfill his mission, that is, by being crucified. After his ascension, however, he will send an apostle to heal the king.

Do you believe that Jesus actually wrote this letter?

Eusebius was the historian and right hand man for the "beast with two horns like a lamb", Constantine. One of the things Eusebius wrote was that the victors write the historian to fit into their own narrative. Eusebius, one of the church leaders, was a politician to his core. While being an original leader of the Arian movement, he wouldn't vote for or against Arius, so that his position with Constantine remained intact. The role of the "beast with two horns like a lamb" was to "deceive" those "who dwell on the earth" (Revelation 13:11-14).

[bjs]

[Replying to showme]

Showme, I know that this is a little off topic, but I am curious: You reject almost the entire New Testament. You have stated in other threads that you dont accept the letters of Paul or the four gospels as true. You specifically rejected Luke/Acts because of the authors connection to Paul. If nearly all the rest of the New Testament is invalid, why do you accept Revelations as true?