If you believe in Heaven.
If you believe in redemption.
If you believe in monotheism, or a monotheism that is a trinity.
If you believe they put a man on the moon.
Why would you think it has any effect on reality?
Why would you think it has any effect on the afterlife or God?
Realtiy, whatever it is, IS what it is, right?
If termites prayed to you would it make a difference?
Reality will be unchanged by your beliefs, right?
God is perfect and unchanged by your beliefs right?
So how does belief change God or what happens ever, or after you die?
If one termite believes you are his savior, and one believes I am it's saviour, does this change anything at all?
Does belief matter at all?
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JehovahsWitness
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Re: Does belief matter at all?
Post #21Was there a part of "[strike]consulting[/strike] consenting adults that are united in marriage" you are having problems with understanding? or were you taught to equate prison gang sex with marital relations?Tcg wrote:Sure. It's as wholesome as prison group sex.JehovahsWitness wrote:
Plus there is nothing "discusting" about sex between consulting adults that are united in marriage, so there is no reason to see the metaphor as "discusting".
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681
"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" - Romans 14:8
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681
"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" - Romans 14:8
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Bust Nak
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Re: Does belief matter at all?
Post #22[Replying to post 21 by JehovahsWitness]
The part I am having problem understanding is where an unbridgable imbalance of power in a relationship with threat of violence, is being equated to "united in marriage." Don't know about anyone else, but huge power imbalance is what I was taught to equate prison gang sex with.
The part I am having problem understanding is where an unbridgable imbalance of power in a relationship with threat of violence, is being equated to "united in marriage." Don't know about anyone else, but huge power imbalance is what I was taught to equate prison gang sex with.
Post #23
It depends what we mean by the key word "believe".
Perhaps we think of belief as an intellectual assent to reality. "I believe in God the same way I believe that 2 plus 2 equals 4." In this sense the focus is on facts. To believe is to consider something to be true or factual. And of course the reverse is also relevant. "I disbelieve in God the same way I disbelieve that 2 plus 2 equals 9."
I suspect that for those outside of Christianity, this is how they conceive the word as applied to God, and it may also be the kind of meaning they attribute to Christians. It is certainly how the word seems to be used in the OP. And of course the OP is correct at this level. To believe the truthfulness of a fact makes no difference to its reality. 2 plus 2 equals 4 whether or not I believe it to be so. Nor does my belief give some sort of new, dazzling truthfulness to the equation.
But while understandable, this concept misses the point. Belief can also be understood relationally, and in this respect it has to do with trust and commitment. This is why some of the posts use the analogy of a marriage. I believe as a matter of fact that many women are beautiful, intelligent, friendly and faithful. But in the case of one particular woman I believe this as a matter of personal life long commitment. And that commitment that both of us has made to the other has indeed changed us. I have learned things about intimacy and sacrificial love that I might never have learned in the absence of that marriage relationship.
I believe in God the same way. For me it is more than a matter of intellectually believing that there is a God. (Although I do believe at that level as well.) It's also a matter of believing relationally, of making an actual trust commitment to a personal, living God, discovering as I do that his love for me is beginning to make me a better person.
Perhaps we think of belief as an intellectual assent to reality. "I believe in God the same way I believe that 2 plus 2 equals 4." In this sense the focus is on facts. To believe is to consider something to be true or factual. And of course the reverse is also relevant. "I disbelieve in God the same way I disbelieve that 2 plus 2 equals 9."
I suspect that for those outside of Christianity, this is how they conceive the word as applied to God, and it may also be the kind of meaning they attribute to Christians. It is certainly how the word seems to be used in the OP. And of course the OP is correct at this level. To believe the truthfulness of a fact makes no difference to its reality. 2 plus 2 equals 4 whether or not I believe it to be so. Nor does my belief give some sort of new, dazzling truthfulness to the equation.
But while understandable, this concept misses the point. Belief can also be understood relationally, and in this respect it has to do with trust and commitment. This is why some of the posts use the analogy of a marriage. I believe as a matter of fact that many women are beautiful, intelligent, friendly and faithful. But in the case of one particular woman I believe this as a matter of personal life long commitment. And that commitment that both of us has made to the other has indeed changed us. I have learned things about intimacy and sacrificial love that I might never have learned in the absence of that marriage relationship.
I believe in God the same way. For me it is more than a matter of intellectually believing that there is a God. (Although I do believe at that level as well.) It's also a matter of believing relationally, of making an actual trust commitment to a personal, living God, discovering as I do that his love for me is beginning to make me a better person.
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ttruscott
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Re: Does belief matter at all?
Post #24Exactly what part of "a truly loving and righteous marriage in holy communion and telepathic communication with us" do you disapprove of?Tcg wrote:Sure. It's as wholesome as prison group sex.JehovahsWitness wrote:
Plus there is nothing "discusting" about sex between consulting adults that are united in marriage, so there is no reason to see the metaphor as "discusting".
What do you suggest to put in its place?
Marriage is not and never has been a symbol for sex. The sexual union has always been the symbol for the intense emotional unity within the commitment of a true marriage.
PCE Theology as I see it...
We had an existence with a free will in Sheol before the creation of the physical universe. Here we chose to be able to become holy or to be eternally evil in YHWH's sight. Then the physical universe was created and all sinners were sent to earth.
This theology debunks the need to base Christianity upon the blasphemy of creating us in Adam's sin.
We had an existence with a free will in Sheol before the creation of the physical universe. Here we chose to be able to become holy or to be eternally evil in YHWH's sight. Then the physical universe was created and all sinners were sent to earth.
This theology debunks the need to base Christianity upon the blasphemy of creating us in Adam's sin.
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ttruscott
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Re: Does belief matter at all?
Post #25In earthly terms you got it about right. But our sinful lives and aberrant deviancies had nothing to do with why HE created us (the topic) and how HE created us able to appreciate true love and a real marriage. People are not in the state HE created us to be in but are fallen, addicted to evil, and nothing in our earthly state speaks to or reflects the reality of the heavenly state.Bust Nak wrote: [Replying to post 21 by JehovahsWitness]
The part I am having problem understanding is where an unbridgable imbalance of power in a relationship with threat of violence, is being equated to "united in marriage." Don't know about anyone else, but huge power imbalance is what I was taught to equate prison gang sex with.
PCE Theology as I see it...
We had an existence with a free will in Sheol before the creation of the physical universe. Here we chose to be able to become holy or to be eternally evil in YHWH's sight. Then the physical universe was created and all sinners were sent to earth.
This theology debunks the need to base Christianity upon the blasphemy of creating us in Adam's sin.
We had an existence with a free will in Sheol before the creation of the physical universe. Here we chose to be able to become holy or to be eternally evil in YHWH's sight. Then the physical universe was created and all sinners were sent to earth.
This theology debunks the need to base Christianity upon the blasphemy of creating us in Adam's sin.
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Bust Nak
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Re: Does belief matter at all?
Post #26Can God appreciate true love and a real marriage? If so then God could have create God like beings who would without fail, choose to be in a loving and real marriage with God. Instead we have a bunch of fallen, addicted to evil, beings who does not reflects "the reality of the heavenly state." And that is a logical contradiction re the problem of evil. Is God unable to create said God like beings? Or is he able but unwilling?ttruscott wrote: In earthly terms you got it about right. But our sinful lives and aberrant deviancies had nothing to do with why HE created us (the topic) and how HE created us able to appreciate true love and a real marriage.
Post #27
Posts 2, 4, and 6 (Bluethread, Farwanderer, and JehovahsWitness respectively) all answered the post effectively and with the same basic idea. Belief does not affect the outside world. Belief affects those who believe (affects their attitudes, actions, and outlook).
I notice that all three of these posts have been ignored.
I notice that all three of these posts have been ignored.
Understand that you might believe. Believe that you might understand. –Augustine of Hippo
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Willum
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Post #28
[Replying to post 27 by bjs]
Posts 2,4 and 6 talk about the analogy and the termites.
Nothing to answer.
They said belief changes the termites, and since the topic is about how belief changes what happens after you die, these, just like being the bride of Christ, they are off topic.
The question is: Reality being reality, how will belief change things?
Does an all-powerful creature care about what you believe?
I don't think the concept is all that complicated, but posts 2,4 and 6 as well as the "Bride of Christ," post are not on topic.
Posts 2,4 and 6 talk about the analogy and the termites.
Nothing to answer.
They said belief changes the termites, and since the topic is about how belief changes what happens after you die, these, just like being the bride of Christ, they are off topic.
The question is: Reality being reality, how will belief change things?
Does an all-powerful creature care about what you believe?
I don't think the concept is all that complicated, but posts 2,4 and 6 as well as the "Bride of Christ," post are not on topic.
Post #29
[Replying to Willum]
The topic is about how belief changes what happens after you die? Wow, I got to say that was not at all clear from the opening post.
Well, there is only one way to know if belief changes what happens after you die. That is to die. Until then every response on any side of the issue is a hypotheses at best.
The topic is about how belief changes what happens after you die? Wow, I got to say that was not at all clear from the opening post.
Well, there is only one way to know if belief changes what happens after you die. That is to die. Until then every response on any side of the issue is a hypotheses at best.
Understand that you might believe. Believe that you might understand. –Augustine of Hippo
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Willum
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Post #30
[Replying to post 29 by bjs]
Understand that you might believe. Believe that you might understand. –Augustine of Hippo
Well now that you understand, it is likely plain to you that changing what you believe is not going to change reality.
Whatever criteria God has, assuming he exists, aren't going to change because of what you believe.
Understand that you might believe. Believe that you might understand. –Augustine of Hippo
Well now that you understand, it is likely plain to you that changing what you believe is not going to change reality.
Whatever criteria God has, assuming he exists, aren't going to change because of what you believe.
