God kills 70000 Israelites!!!

[alexxcJRO]

According to the perfect inerrant word of God(Bible) the omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent Yahweh kills 70,000 Israelites including countless of innocent(of any wrong-doing, sin) small children, infants for the sin of one man(David) after he or Satan incites him to sin:

2 Samuel 24

“David Enrolls the Fighting Men
24 Again the anger of the LORD burned against Israel, and he incited David against them, saying, “Go and take a census of Israel and Judah.�
2 So the king said to Joab and the army commanders[a] with him, “Go throughout the tribes of Israel from Dan to Beersheba and enroll the fighting men, so that I may know how many there are.�
3 But Joab replied to the king, “May the LORD your God multiply the troops a hundred times over, and may the eyes of my lord the king see it. But why does my lord the king want to do such a thing?�
4 The king’s word, however, overruled Joab and the army commanders; so they left the presence of the king to enroll the fighting men of Israel.
5 After crossing the Jordan, they camped near Aroer, south of the town in the gorge, and then went through Gad and on to Jazer. 6 They went to Gilead and the region of Tahtim Hodshi, and on to Dan Jaan and around toward Sidon. 7 Then they went toward the fortress of Tyre and all the towns of the Hivites and Canaanites. Finally, they went on to Beershebain the Negev of Judah.
8 After they had gone through the entire land, they came back to Jerusalem at the end of nine months and twenty days.
9 Joab reported the number of the fighting men to the king: In Israel there were eight hundred thousand able-bodied men who could handle a sword, and in Judah five hundred thousand.
10 David was conscience-stricken after he had counted the fighting men, and he said to the LORD, “I have sinned greatly in what I have done. Now, LORD, I beg you, take away the guilt of your servant. I have done a very foolish thing.�
11 Before David got up the next morning, the word of the LORD had come to Gad the prophet, David’s seer: 12 “Go and tell David, ‘This is what the LORD says: I am giving you three options. Choose one of them for me to carry out against you.’�
13 So Gad went to David and said to him, “Shall there come on you three years of famine in your land? Or three months of fleeing from your enemies while they pursue you? Or three days of plague in your land? Now then, think it over and decide how I should answer the one who sent me.�
14 David said to Gad, “I am in deep distress. Let us fall into the hands of the LORD, for his mercy is great; but do not let me fall into human hands.�
15 So the LORD sent a plague on Israel from that morning until the end of the time designated, and seventy thousand of the people from Dan to Beersheba died. 16 When the angel stretched out his hand to destroy Jerusalem, the LORD relented concerning the disaster and said to the angel who was afflicting the people, “Enough! Withdraw your hand.� The angel of the LORD was then at the threshing floor of Araunah the Jebusite.
17 When David saw the angel who was striking down the people, he said to the LORD, “I have sinned; I, the shepherd,[c] have done wrong. These are but sheep. What have they done? Let your hand fall on me and my family.� “

Observation: The account in 1 Chronicles is different then the account in 2 Samuel. (So much for the perfect, inerrant word of God)

Someone would wonder what abominable sin David committed that angered God so much to make him act in such horrendous way: killing tens of thousands of men, woman and children.

Hold on your straps people, here it comes: He did a census!!!

Imagine that. The poor guy did a census and Yahweh in his perfect wisdom, justice, benevolence decided that the punishment suited for this was not to punish in some way the person guilty of the wrong-doing, sin but instead kill 70 000 people innocent of this wrong-doing, sin; kill thousands of small children, infants who are innocent of any wrong-doing, sin.

David even asks a very wise question to God. Why punish others when he was the one guilty:

“I have sinned; I, the shepherd,[c] have done wrong. These are but sheep. What have they done?�

Off course the perfect God of the Bible does not answer the question. How would he?!!!

Q: How can anyone be so oblivious to such a huge discrepancy, contradiction between the supposed attributes of God (omnipotence, omniscience, omnibenevolence, perfect wisdom, justice, mercy) and the actions of this being portrait in the Bible?

Q: How can anyone praise, worship a being that inflicts so easily, so much suffering and death to thousands of innocent children? How can one call this being benevolent or wise or loving?

Q: How can anyone in their right mind, with their rational faculties intact defend such actions and not smell the foul stench of nonsense rotting their brain?

[bluethread]

You said "After much consideration Shlomo concludes, (Ecc. 12:13B-14) "Fear Elohim, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man. For Elohim shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil."

Therefore God has put forward some moral obligations(respecting the moral law comprised of the commandments + rest of Deuteronomy laws).

Right("Good") represent according to your God's logic abiding to this moral law.

Wrong("Evil") represent according to your God's logic not abiding to this moral law.

Non-moral agents(non-human animals, infants, mentally impaired people) don't have the mental capacity to understand abstract concepts like: wrong, right, evil, good, commandment, law, salvation, judgment. Therefore they cannot be judged or punished for not respecting the moral law. They are by default innocent. Therefore God should show benevolence to non-moral agents for they are innocent.

Sorry, it took so long to get back to you. This thread must have gotten lost in the shuffle.

No, they are not guilty or innocent. The law does not apply to them. Adonai does to them as He pleases.

We have an instance(the 70, 000 Israelites that died of plague) in the Bible where we see God inflicting countless suffering, pain and death to countless non-moral agents punishing them together with the moral agents. Therefore shows malevolence.

Therefore we have a logical contradiction.

Either God is a moron(he is incapable to understand simple logic) and not omnipotent or malevolent(he understand non-moral agents are innocent but does not care) or it simply does not exist(it is just an illogical concept conjured by bronze age morons).

No contradiction. Adonai is not omnibenevolent. The 70,000 were executed in accordance with HaTorah. Any others, not covered by HaTorah were simply eliminated based on the right of a creator to do as He wishes with His creation.

Regarding what Shlomo said, that is the conclusion of a philosophical treatise regarding how one of Adonai's people should live. It isn't talking about those who don't know His commandments. It would make no sense to advise one to keep the commandments, if one does not know the commandments.

[William]

[Replying to post 181 by bluethread]

...based on the right of a creator to do as He wishes with His creation.

The devil is there in the details.

One does not have a right to do with ones creation what they will. The problem with this theology is that it assumes GOD thinks like a man. To be precise like a uneducated, ignorant, man.

[alexxcJRO]

No, they are not guilty or innocent. The law does not apply to them. Adonai does to them as He pleases.
Any others, not covered by HaTorah were simply eliminated based on the right of a creator to do as He wishes with His creation.

Like i said "or malevolent(he understand non-moral agents are innocent but does not care)�.

So your God does not care about the countless suffering and pain he causes randomly to countless non-moral agents(small children, infants, mentally impaired people, non-human animals).

Q: Why worship a malevolent, capricious being? Just cuz he is extremly powerful?

[bluethread]

[Replying to post 181 by bluethread]

...based on the right of a creator to do as He wishes with His creation.

The devil is there in the details.

One does not have a right to do with ones creation what they will. The problem with this theology is that it assumes GOD thinks like a man. To be precise like a uneducated, ignorant, man.

What? I have little doubt that you do as you please with those things you create. In fact, even with regard to living organisms, the Supreme Court of these United States ahs decided that a life form can be patented. Regarding the anthropomorphizing of the issue, I submit it is you who is holding a deity to humanistic standards. I do not think that deities would be bound by such things. Since you say the devil is in the details, what do you believe those details to be?

[bluethread]

No, they are not guilty or innocent. The law does not apply to them. Adonai does to them as He pleases.
Any others, not covered by HaTorah were simply eliminated based on the right of a creator to do as He wishes with His creation.

Like i said "or malevolent(he understand non-moral agents are innocent but does not care)�.

So your God does not care about the countless suffering and pain he causes randomly to countless non-moral agents(small children, infants, mentally impaired people, non-human animals).

Q: Why worship a malevolent, capricious being? Just cuz he is extremly powerful?

Innocence, like guilt are legal terms. Where there is no law such terms are meaningless. What is the law that you are using to make your judgement? I have no doubt that you harm "non-moral agents" without a care all of the time. Do you eat meat? Do you kill flies and mosquitoes? Why do some Vietnamese dogs obey their masters, when other dogs are used as livestock?

[alexxcJRO]

Innocence, like guilt are legal terms. Where there is no law such terms are meaningless. What is the law that you are using to make your judgement? I have no doubt that you harm "non-moral agents" without a care all of the time. Do you eat meat? Do you kill flies and mosquitoes? Why do some Vietnamese dogs obey their masters, when other dogs are used as livestock?

Firstly,

Don't dodge dear sir.

No legal terms:
So your God does not care about the countless suffering and pain he causes randomly to countless small children, infants, mentally impaired people, non-human animals.

Q: Why worship a malevolent, capricious being? Just cuz' he is extremely powerful?

Secondly,

Dear sir i was talking about gratutious suffering and pain that are not necessary.
I don't kill any animals unless it is causing substantial harm to me. Today for example i rescued a bug and did not kill it. I took it outside and put in the grass.

As for meat. It is necessary. Animals including humans kill other animals and plants in order to acquire sustenance and survive. If God exists he is ultimately responsible for this carnage.

Thirdly,

This seems like a desperate and weak defense.

Let's take the case of Hitler, the Nazis that committed genocide and killed millions of Jews.

So when someone accuses the Nazis and Hitler of genocide you come to their defense like this:
-Why are you judging Hitler and the Nazis. Are you not eating meat and killing bugs?!

Q: Seriously?

Imagine this defense at the Nuremberg trials. Laughable.

[bluethread]

Firstly,

Don't dodge dear sir.

No legal terms:
So your God does not care about the countless suffering and pain he causes randomly to countless small children, infants, mentally impaired people, non-human animals.

Q: Why worship a malevolent, capricious being? Just cuz' he is extremely powerful?

Ok, so no more talk of guilt and innocence. Let's talk about trans-species malevolence. The problem with that is that you are not talking about aggressive action, which malevolence is, but indifference. Those are two different things. So, you will not accusing me of dodging, I will address both. However, it is important that we remember that the two are not the same thing.

Secondly,

Dear sir i was talking about gratutious suffering and pain that are not necessary.
I don't kill any animals unless it is causing substantial harm to me. Today for example i rescued a bug and did not kill it. I took it outside and put in the grass.

As for meat. It is necessary. Animals including humans kill other animals and plants in order to acquire sustenance and survive. If God exists he is ultimately responsible for this carnage.

On what basis do you consider it gratuitous and not necessary? Something may appear unreasonable to you, but that does not make it absolutely unreasonable. Also, necessity is relative. For example, many find your argument for eating meat gratuitous and unnecessary, because humans are omnivores and therefore do not need meat in order to survive, especially in a society that provides a multitude of alternatives. Here, you are making the argument that eating meat is not a matter of malevolence, but indifference. Blaming a deity does not change that.

Thirdly,

This seems like a desperate and weak defense.

Let's take the case of Hitler, the Nazis that committed genocide and killed millions of Jews.

So when someone accuses the Nazis and Hitler of genocide you come to their defense like this:
-Why are you judging Hitler and the Nazis. Are you not eating meat and killing bugs?!

Q: Seriously? :

Imagine this defense at the Nuremberg trials. Laughable.

I did not make that argument. This is the standard AdNazism fallacy. Though their are examples of gratuitous cruelty in Nazi Germay, the Nazi's, on the whole, were not capricious. They were rather well focused in their policies. As with your justifications for eating meat, they had their justifications for what they did. That does not mean that their justifications were acceptable, it means that things are rarely done without some kind of justification, at least in the miind of the one doing it. In fact, that was the primary defense at Nuremburg. They argued that the Allies bombing Dresden and Briton's colonialism showed that they accepted the principle that the end justifies the means and nation states are justified in persuing their own goals. In short, they argued that war is the final arbitor.

[William]

[Replying to post 184 by bluethread]

What? I have little doubt that you do as you please with those things you create.

Let's be very clear here. In the context of what is being discussed here, 'doing as I please with what I create' is not my or anyone else's right.

Indeed, the whole idea of morality is built upon this truth.

In fact, even with regard to living organisms, the Supreme Court of these United States ahs decided that a life form can be patented.

Precisely my point when I stated;

The problem with this theology is that it assumes GOD thinks like a man. To be precise like a uneducated, ignorant, man.

You arguing that man and his laws making it rightful to do wrong things is precisely why the theology is based mostly upon the idea that GOD thinks like a unrighteous human.

I submit it is you who is holding a deity to humanistic standards.

I am not the one proclaiming any GOD kills, orders killings, is jealous, wants to marry human beings, sits on a throne, works through human political structures, is possessive and respects possessiveness, toys with humans, supports the wealthy while allowing the poor to suffer under systems of disparity etc et al.

I do not think that deities would be bound by such things.

Tell that to the supporters of Abrahamic religions. Indeed, you are such a personality are you not? But here you are arguing for deities being bound by such things. Bound to a concept that they can do whatever they want with their creation. That is a human concept. An unrighteous human concept.

Sure, it is obvious to the reader that you do not think that is the case with you particular deity, but Jesus did say there would be such people - in great numbers who would be deceived in his name.

Indeed, what do you think Jesus was referring to when he told the religious elite that their deity was the 'evil one'?

Since you say the devil is in the details, what do you believe those details to be?

See my comment above.

It is hard to see a devil when one believes it is a GOD. Not only 'a GOD' but 'the GOD of all GODs.'

But as the saying goes, once one applies truthfulness in their examining all the details, one sees the devil hiding in plain sight - dressed up as a GOD - a very human GOD at that.

When humans dress up effigies, these are called 'dolls'. Dolls are human puppets. They do what humans make them do. They have no life of their own.

Now take that idea and reverse it and what do you have. you have an idea of a GOD that uses humans like puppets - dolls - toy soldiers - and there you have it. A 'GOD' that has the right to use [his] creation any way [he] wants.

[bluethread]

[Replying to post 184 by bluethread]

What? I have little doubt that you do as you please with those things you create.

Let's be very clear here. In the context of what is being discussed here, 'doing as I please with what I create' is not my or anyone else's right.

Indeed, the whole idea of morality is built upon this truth.

You do not believe in property rights? The whole idea of a free society is based on property rights.

In fact, even with regard to living organisms, the Supreme Court of these United States ahs decided that a life form can be patented.

Precisely my point when I stated;

The problem with this theology is that it assumes GOD thinks like a man. To be precise like a uneducated, ignorant, man.

You arguing that man and his laws making it rightful to do wrong things is precisely why the theology is based mostly upon the idea that GOD thinks like a unrighteous human.

No, I am saying that EVEN the laws of men recognize this as a right. The view that this court decision is wrong is just you placing your views above those of the United States Supreme Court. You are free to do that, however, you then must show how your view is the correct view.

I submit it is you who is holding a deity to humanistic standards.

I am not the one proclaiming any GOD kills, orders killings, is jealous, wants to marry human beings, sits on a throne, works through human political structures, is possessive and respects possessiveness, toys with humans, supports the wealthy while allowing the poor to suffer under systems of disparity etc et al.

However, you are the one that is asserting that such things are wrong. You are therefore obligated to justify that position. More, precisely the position that one life form that creates another is not justified I doing with it as it pleases.

I do not think that deities would be bound by such things.

Tell that to the supporters of Abrahamic religions. Indeed, you are such a personality are you not? But here you are arguing for deities being bound by such things. Bound to a concept that they can do whatever they want with their creation. That is a human concept. An unrighteous human concept.

No, I am not arguing that Adonai is bound to do that, I am arguing that He is free to do that.

Sure, it is obvious to the reader that you do not think that is the case with you particular deity, but Jesus did say there would be such people - in great numbers who would be deceived in his name.

Indeed, what do you think Jesus was referring to when he told the religious elite that their deity was the 'evil one'?

I think He was telling them that they where not following Adonai, but the Adversary. Adonai is the creator and the one with the right to do as He pleases.

Now take that idea and reverse it and what do you have. you have an idea of a GOD that uses humans like puppets - dolls - toy soldiers - and there you have it. A 'GOD' that has the right to use [his] creation any way [he] wants.

Not, necessarily, but to the extent thst is true, what does the puppet have to say about it?

[Hawkins]

Firstly,

Don't dodge dear sir.

No legal terms:
So your God does not care about the countless suffering and pain he causes randomly to countless small children, infants, mentally impaired people, non-human animals.

Q: Why worship a malevolent, capricious being? Just cuz' he is extremely powerful?

Secondly,

Dear sir i was talking about gratutious suffering and pain that are not necessary.
I don't kill any animals unless it is causing substantial harm to me. Today for example i rescued a bug and did not kill it. I took it outside and put in the grass.

As for meat. It is necessary. Animals including humans kill other animals and plants in order to acquire sustenance and survive. If God exists he is ultimately responsible for this carnage.

Thirdly,

This seems like a desperate and weak defense.

Let's take the case of Hitler, the Nazis that committed genocide and killed millions of Jews.

So when someone accuses the Nazis and Hitler of genocide you come to their defense like this:
-Why are you judging Hitler and the Nazis. Are you not eating meat and killing bugs?!

Q: Seriously?

Imagine this defense at the Nuremberg trials. Laughable.

I gave the explanation to people here long ago.

Literally God kills everyone for once on earth. There's no a particular way guarantees one way of dying is advantageous than the other.

Unlike humans we based our morality on physical bodies, God base His morality on souls. If the killing of a human can save a soul from the eternal hell, what makes you think the opposite is more moral?

It's not more moral for God to preserve a human life by putting more souls to an eternal hell. He eradicated the Caanonites such that the Jews can survive for God's salvation message to reach today's humans for their souls to be saved.

Or else the opposite may be true. The brutal and cruel Canaanites, who killed their own children in order to worship Baal, would in the end outnumber and wipe out the Jews. Then all of us will wind up in an eternal hell by the judgment of law. That doesn't sound to be more moral. Maximizing the number of souls saved is God's main job here on earth. The physical death of a human is never comparable to the suffering of the separation from God.

Where will those 70,000 Israeli eventually go? Hell? Not necessarily. From my speculation, God may well have a full plan for Israel. The killing of them mostly is to establish Israel to be a good carrier of God's message for His salvation message to reach today's humans. It is proven by history that the Jews are the only ethnic group of humans which are put to an exile without a home nation for 2000 years but still keeping their religion and their loyalty to God.