Isn't the Book of Revelation just a fable and not literal?

[polonius]

http://www.usccb.org/bible/revelation/0

Introduction to Revelation – New American Bible Revised Edition

This much, however, is certain: symbolic descriptions are not to be taken as literal descriptions, nor is the symbolism meant to be pictured realistically. One would find it difficult and repulsive to visualize a lamb with seven horns and seven eyes; yet Jesus Christ is described in precisely such words (Rev 5:6). The author used these images to suggest Christ’s universal (seven) power (horns) and knowledge (eyes). A significant feature of apocalyptic writing is the use of symbolic colors, metals, garments (Rev 1:13–16; 3:18; 4:4; 6:1–8; 17:4; 19:8), and numbers (four signifies the world, six imperfection, seven totality or perfection, twelve Israel’s tribes or the apostles, one thousand immensity). Finally the vindictive language in the book (Rev 6:9–10; 18:1–19:4) is also to be understood symbolically and not literally. The cries for vengeance on the lips of Christian martyrs that sound so harsh are in fact literary devices the author employed to evoke in the reader and hearer a feeling of horror for apostasy and rebellion that will be severely punished by God.

[onewithhim]

[Replying to post 119 by marco]

What is a "silly" number as opposed to a sensible one? What is the criteria? What renders a number "silly" or not?

I think the silliness is in its implied specificity. "As I was going down the street I noticed 17,639 people waiting for a bus." Silly.
"As I was walking down the street I saw 3 people waiting for a bus." OK.

Before bison were slaughtered it is said that it took several days for a herd to pass by. If someone said they saw 144,000 bison charging past, we would smile.

I hope this helps.

There's no need to tell me about square numbers or barbarian tribes, by the way.

I already said that it is God who knows, in the end, who the 144,000 are, and he knows who the members of the "great multitude" are. Men could count the 144,000 if they stayed still in one spot. The Great Crowd is so big that they can't be counted by men trying to tally them up. Your objections are what is silly.

[Checkpoint]

[Replying to post 130 by onewithhim]

I'm perfectly happy to let them rule, while I enjoy a beautifully physical life here on Earth with my dream home, pet lions, sparkling water falls and pools, and relatives of mine all the way to Adam who will be resurrected back to the earth.

An impossible dream.

Words fail me at this point.

[2timothy316]

[Replying to post 130 by onewithhim]

I'm perfectly happy to let them rule, while I enjoy a beautifully physical life here on Earth with my dream home, pet lions, sparkling water falls and pools, and relatives of mine all the way to Adam who will be resurrected back to the earth.

An impossible dream.

Words fail me at this point.

Matthew 19:26 says, "Jesus looked at them and said, "With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible."

Do you feel her 'dream' or hope to be foolish? (1 Corinthians 2:14-16)

That hope is not based on nothing.

Psalm 37:11, 29 David wrote: “The meek ones themselves will possess the earth, ...The righteous themselves will possess the earth, and they will reside forever upon it.�

Isaiah 11:6-8. states, “And the wolf will actually reside for a while with the male lamb, and with the kid the leopard itself will lie down, and the calf and the maned young lion and the well-fed animal all together; and a mere little boy will be leader over them. And the cow and the bear themselves will feed; together their young ones will lie down. And even the lion will eat straw just like the bull. And the sucking child will certainly play upon the hole of the cobra; and upon the light aperture of a poisonous snake will a weaned child actually put his own hand.�​

Isaiah 45:18, 19. says, “This is what Jehovah has said, the Creator of the heavens, He the true God, the Former of the earth and the Maker of it, He the One who firmly established it, who did not create it simply for nothing, who formed it even to be inhabited: ‘I am Jehovah, and there is no one else. . . . I am Jehovah, speaking what is righteous, telling what is upright.’�​

Isaiah 55:11 says, "so is my word that goes out from my mouth: It will not return to me empty, but will accomplish what I desire and achieve the purpose for which I sent it."

If you think hope in these scriptures to be foolish then you must think I'm a fool too because I too have hope and faith that these scriptures are true.

[Checkpoint]

[Replying to post 130 by onewithhim]

I'm perfectly happy to let them rule, while I enjoy a beautifully physical life here on Earth with my dream home, pet lions, sparkling water falls and pools, and relatives of mine all the way to Adam who will be resurrected back to the earth.

An impossible dream.

Words fail me at this point.

Matthew 19:26 says, "Jesus looked at them and said, "With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible."

Do you feel her 'dream' or hope to be foolish? (1 Corinthians 2:14-16)

That hope is not based on nothing.

Psalm 37:11, 29 David wrote: “The meek ones themselves will possess the earth, ...The righteous themselves will possess the earth, and they will reside forever upon it.�

Isaiah 11:6-8. states, “And the wolf will actually reside for a while with the male lamb, and with the kid the leopard itself will lie down, and the calf and the maned young lion and the well-fed animal all together; and a mere little boy will be leader over them. And the cow and the bear themselves will feed; together their young ones will lie down. And even the lion will eat straw just like the bull. And the sucking child will certainly play upon the hole of the cobra; and upon the light aperture of a poisonous snake will a weaned child actually put his own hand.�​

Isaiah 45:18, 19. says, “This is what Jehovah has said, the Creator of the heavens, He the true God, the Former of the earth and the Maker of it, He the One who firmly established it, who did not create it simply for nothing, who formed it even to be inhabited: ‘I am Jehovah, and there is no one else. . . . I am Jehovah, speaking what is righteous, telling what is upright.’�​

Isaiah 55:11 says, "so is my word that goes out from my mouth: It will not return to me empty, but will accomplish what I desire and achieve the purpose for which I sent it."

If you think hope in these scriptures to be foolish then you must think I'm a fool too because I too have hope and faith that these scriptures are true.

I do not think her hope, or yours, is foolish, but misplaced.

I do not think scriptures are foolish, but that our understanding of their meaning and their context will vary, and may change over time, as it has for me.

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 134 by Checkpoint]

And what is your understanding of the scriptures quoted?

[Checkpoint]

[Replying to post 135 by JehovahsWitness]

And what is your understanding of the scriptures quoted?

Sometimes much the same as you, sometimes different.

I called onewithhim's post "an impossible dream" because it seemed to go beyond any scriptures in its descriptions, for one.

My reaction also reflected my beliefs concerning the validity or otherwise of the common view that the thousand years is a time following the return of Jesus.

[JehovahsWitness]

I called onewithhim's post "an impossible dream" because it seemed to go beyond any scriptures in its descriptions, for one.

What do you mean by going "beyond scriptures" ?

What specifically was stated that in your opinion went "beyond scriptures"?

[Replying to post 130 by onewithhim]

I'm perfectly happy to let them rule, while I enjoy a beautifully physical life here on Earth with my dream home, pet lions, sparkling water falls and pools, and relatives of mine all the way to Adam who will be resurrected back to the earth.

An impossible dream.

Words fail me at this point.

[tam]

Peace to you!

Sorry for the delay in responding.

[Replying to post 113 by Checkpoint]

Finally, here is why I therefore consider the 144,00 and the great multitude to be one and the same.

John says, verse 4, "I heard the number", and then relays the details. In all this he sees nothing.

Until verse 9, when he says, "After this I looked, and..."

You are correct in that he did hear that number (the 144 000, 12000 from each of twelve tribes). He did not see them; he just heard their number. Then, after that, he looked and saw the great crowd (that could not be counted).


Note:

The 144 000 is counted; the Great Crowd is not counted. The 144 000 are counted because they are from the remnant (of natural Israel) that God specifically reserves for Himself. They are able to be counted because that is a reserved/guaranteed number.



But as you also said, the 144 000 are one with the great crowd. They ARE one group; they are ALL the bride; they ALL serve day and night in the Temple. There are simply 144 000 places reserved for the natural descendants of Israel, an equal number from those 12 tribes (Dan gave up his portion, but Joseph receives a double portion - which is why Dan is out, and Manasseh is in.)


So John heard a number (144 000); he ALSO heard the tribes from which that number came.

Then looked and saw a great crowd that no one could count (from all peoples, nations, tongues and TRIBES). I'm sure there are more from natural Israel in the great crowd, along with gentiles from every people, nation, tongue, and tribe. But 144 000 places are guaranteed/reserved for those who are naturally descended from those specific 12 tribes. Individually, they might not even know that they are descended from one of those tribes. I'm sure you remember that Israel has been scattered among the nations, intermarried, forgotten heritages, etc, (forgotten by man, but of course not by God).




Remember also that while gentiles were grafted in, and some of the natural branches cut away to make room for them, there are natural branches as well. A remnant chosen by grace. (Romans 11)




Of course no one needs to take my word for it; one can and should go to Christ Himself, and ask to know the truth of these and any matters, from Him.



Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

[Checkpoint]

I called onewithhim's post "an impossible dream" because it seemed to go beyond any scriptures in its descriptions, for one.

What do you mean by going "beyond scriptures" ?

What specifically was stated that in your opinion went "beyond scriptures"?

[Replying to post 130 by onewithhim]

I'm perfectly happy to let them rule, while I enjoy a beautifully physical life here on Earth with my dream home, pet lions, sparkling water falls and pools, and relatives of mine all the way to Adam who will be resurrected back to the earth.

An impossible dream.

Words fail me at this point.

You did ask. [sorry, onewithhim]

It comes across as all about the wrong No. 1.

"physical life"; "dream home", for example.

Nothing about spiritual life, about salvation, about God or Jesus.

As for the Adam mention...

[JehovahsWitness]

I called onewithhim's post "an impossible dream" because it seemed to go beyond any scriptures in its descriptions, for one.

"physical life" [...] for example.

So you are saying that a reference to 'physical life' is going "beyond scripture"? Did Paul not acknowledge the existence of a "physical life"

1 CORINTHIANS 15:44

As surely as there are physical bodies, there are spiritual bodies.

Just because you may not agree who gets to enjoy which life and when, doesn't mean that a reference to "physical life" is non-scriptural. We believe that when Jesus said the "meek shall inherit the earth" he was speaking about this physical literal earth and that the meek will be in their "physical bodies" - obviously those physical bodies won't be dead while they are inheriting the earth so "physical life" is a most fitting description of the biblical hope for the meek. You may or may not agree with that interpretation, but there is no denying a reference to "physical life" is not adding a notion that does not exit in the bible.





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