God kills 70000 Israelites!!!

[alexxcJRO]

According to the perfect inerrant word of God(Bible) the omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent Yahweh kills 70,000 Israelites including countless of innocent(of any wrong-doing, sin) small children, infants for the sin of one man(David) after he or Satan incites him to sin:

2 Samuel 24

“David Enrolls the Fighting Men
24 Again the anger of the LORD burned against Israel, and he incited David against them, saying, “Go and take a census of Israel and Judah.�
2 So the king said to Joab and the army commanders[a] with him, “Go throughout the tribes of Israel from Dan to Beersheba and enroll the fighting men, so that I may know how many there are.�
3 But Joab replied to the king, “May the LORD your God multiply the troops a hundred times over, and may the eyes of my lord the king see it. But why does my lord the king want to do such a thing?�
4 The king’s word, however, overruled Joab and the army commanders; so they left the presence of the king to enroll the fighting men of Israel.
5 After crossing the Jordan, they camped near Aroer, south of the town in the gorge, and then went through Gad and on to Jazer. 6 They went to Gilead and the region of Tahtim Hodshi, and on to Dan Jaan and around toward Sidon. 7 Then they went toward the fortress of Tyre and all the towns of the Hivites and Canaanites. Finally, they went on to Beershebain the Negev of Judah.
8 After they had gone through the entire land, they came back to Jerusalem at the end of nine months and twenty days.
9 Joab reported the number of the fighting men to the king: In Israel there were eight hundred thousand able-bodied men who could handle a sword, and in Judah five hundred thousand.
10 David was conscience-stricken after he had counted the fighting men, and he said to the LORD, “I have sinned greatly in what I have done. Now, LORD, I beg you, take away the guilt of your servant. I have done a very foolish thing.�
11 Before David got up the next morning, the word of the LORD had come to Gad the prophet, David’s seer: 12 “Go and tell David, ‘This is what the LORD says: I am giving you three options. Choose one of them for me to carry out against you.’�
13 So Gad went to David and said to him, “Shall there come on you three years of famine in your land? Or three months of fleeing from your enemies while they pursue you? Or three days of plague in your land? Now then, think it over and decide how I should answer the one who sent me.�
14 David said to Gad, “I am in deep distress. Let us fall into the hands of the LORD, for his mercy is great; but do not let me fall into human hands.�
15 So the LORD sent a plague on Israel from that morning until the end of the time designated, and seventy thousand of the people from Dan to Beersheba died. 16 When the angel stretched out his hand to destroy Jerusalem, the LORD relented concerning the disaster and said to the angel who was afflicting the people, “Enough! Withdraw your hand.� The angel of the LORD was then at the threshing floor of Araunah the Jebusite.
17 When David saw the angel who was striking down the people, he said to the LORD, “I have sinned; I, the shepherd,[c] have done wrong. These are but sheep. What have they done? Let your hand fall on me and my family.� “

Observation: The account in 1 Chronicles is different then the account in 2 Samuel. (So much for the perfect, inerrant word of God)

Someone would wonder what abominable sin David committed that angered God so much to make him act in such horrendous way: killing tens of thousands of men, woman and children.

Hold on your straps people, here it comes: He did a census!!!

Imagine that. The poor guy did a census and Yahweh in his perfect wisdom, justice, benevolence decided that the punishment suited for this was not to punish in some way the person guilty of the wrong-doing, sin but instead kill 70 000 people innocent of this wrong-doing, sin; kill thousands of small children, infants who are innocent of any wrong-doing, sin.

David even asks a very wise question to God. Why punish others when he was the one guilty:

“I have sinned; I, the shepherd,[c] have done wrong. These are but sheep. What have they done?�

Off course the perfect God of the Bible does not answer the question. How would he?!!!

Q: How can anyone be so oblivious to such a huge discrepancy, contradiction between the supposed attributes of God (omnipotence, omniscience, omnibenevolence, perfect wisdom, justice, mercy) and the actions of this being portrait in the Bible?

Q: How can anyone praise, worship a being that inflicts so easily, so much suffering and death to thousands of innocent children? How can one call this being benevolent or wise or loving?

Q: How can anyone in their right mind, with their rational faculties intact defend such actions and not smell the foul stench of nonsense rotting their brain?

[bluethread]

[Replying to post 209 by William]

This post is so full of strawman arguments, arguments presuming a deity and at the same time rejecting a deity, it is hard to know where to begin. So, I will wait for tcg to respond, since he was the one to whom I was directing those comments.

[William]

[Replying to post 211 by bluethread]

This post is so full of strawman arguments,

No. One is not to just make statements like this without providing the examples alongside...otherwise the reader might suspect a dodge in progress.

arguments presuming a deity and at the same time rejecting a deity, it is hard to know where to begin.

I am presuming a GOOD deity whilst arguing against the notion of an EVIL one. I believe you are intelligent enough to work that one out bluethread.

So, I will wait for tcg to respond, since he was the one to whom I was directing those comments.

As members should be aware - especially long time ones such as yourself - anyone is entitled to answer a post directed at a specific member. I am still awaiting your response to my other posts directed to you arguing against your beliefs about the nature of GOD. I am suspecting what I had to say is something you don't want to deal with. Fair enough, the reader can make up their own mind as to whether my response is worthwhile considering or not.

[William]

[Replying to post 210 by bluethread]

You are simply refusing to accept the analogy, possibly because abortion is currently acceptable among current leftist society, which is directly to the point.

Nope. I am saying the analogy doesn't fit the story.

Let me flesh this out for you. A prolife father and his devoted daughter live in a pro-abortion society.

In relation to the story this analogy has it that the GOD is against human sacrifice and Abe is living in a world where human sacrifice is accepted.

After trying with her husband for some time, she finally finds herself pregnent.

After trying for some time, Abe's wife finally gets pregnant and gives birth to a boy...

Being a person of her time, she is devoted to her job, sees herself as an independent woman and does not see abortion as wrong.

Being a person of his time, Abe isn't interested in having children and secretly wants to sacrifice his son, and plans to do so at some time. Because he lives in a pro-human sacrifice society, he sees no wrong in doing so.

So, her father tells her to go get an abortion.

The GOD of Abe knows what Abe has planned and tells Abe to follow his heart. Abe takes that to mean the GOD is giving the thumbs up and from that somehow twists it to mean that GOD commanded him to sacrifice his son.

Though she wants to have the child, she greatly respects her father and, as stated before, is a woman of her time.

Wait - what? Abe didn't want to sacrifice his son? He is simply following the orders of the father, who incidentally, is supposedly anti human sacrifice??! Where did this twist come into it?! Why, one step back of course! Can you see how far away this analogy is from the actual story BT?

So, she gets the full experience and just as the doctor gets ready to cut the baby's arm, a messenger from the father runs in and tells them to stop. Yes, it is a rather dramatic experience, but one the she is sure never to forget and will pass on to her children.

That is just ridiculous! What is with the 'cut the babies arm' in relation to Abe just about to plunge the knife into his son's heart, or slit his son's throat, or whatever method was popular in his day?
Then you have some messenger arrive to tell Abe that 'it is alright now, GOD has changed his mind and wishes to resume being anti-human sacrifice.

Also, Abe didn't take his son to Dr. Sacrifice to do the job for him.

So yes, it was a terribly dramatic experience which Abe will never forget and which will be passed on to his descendants throughout the rest of time as a lesson in what? Not to go desiring things which ones GOD is against or one's GOD will command you to do them in order to see just how seriously you want to do them, not because you really want to do them but because your GOD commands you to do them and you have no choice but to show your GOD that you really want to do them because you love your GOD and want to do as your GOD commands of you to do, even though you don't want to do them and hopefully your GOD will intervene and stop you from doing them right at he exact time you nearly go through with it.???

Christianity = 'We don't want to participate in the world but our father who art in heaven commands that we do in order to show that we love him and keep his commandments, and in the hope that He will free us from this bondage and eventually send his son to intervene and take away the power currently held by our oppressors whilst in the mean time we shall secure positions within those evil socio-political establishments in order to help Jesus with this process but ultimately we are not interested in earthly things, preferring the hope of our heavenly abode to come, with incorruptible bodies and an eternal song of happiness in our hearts, because even though we do not deserve it, we have embraced a religion which has shaped itself as a vessel which permits us the grace to be given it anyway. - Amen!"

Sorry BT. I am not buying into your analogy or your and Abrahamic Religions desire to have others see that the evil means justifies the promised good ends.

That is just wrong on so many levels mate.

[bluethread]

Being a person of her time, she is devoted to her job, sees herself as an independent woman and does not see abortion as wrong.

Being a person of his time, Abe isn't interested in having children and secretly wants to sacrifice his son, and plans to do so at some time. Because he lives in a pro-human sacrifice society, he sees no wrong in doing so.

You've got it right up to this point. In the analogy, I did not say that she was not interested in having children, secretly wanted to have an abortion and was planning on having one. I had said that she and her husband had tried to get pregnant for some time. I was also saying that she shared the views of her time that contribute to a pro abortion stance. She just had not consider the implications of those views on her personally. Avraham, may not have recognized anything wrong with human sacrifice in general, it was just something that he himself did not do.

Do you follow this so far? I can understand how you would have the reaction you had based on how you saw this part of the analogy. If this is now cleared up, we can move o the next point.

[1213]

Q: How can anyone praise, worship a being that inflicts so easily, so much suffering and death to thousands of innocent children? How can one call this being benevolent or wise or loving?

How do you know they were really innocent?

[William]

[Replying to post 214 by bluethread]

You've got it right up to this point. In the analogy, I did not say that she was not interested in having children, secretly wanted to have an abortion and was planning on having one. I had said that she and her husband had tried to get pregnant for some time. I was also saying that she shared the views of her time that contribute to a pro abortion stance. She just had not consider the implications of those views on her personally. Avraham, may not have recognized anything wrong with human sacrifice in general, it was just something that he himself did not do.

But if that were the case - in line with the story - Abraham would have therefore seen no problem with following the command of his GOD or thinking in any way it was out of order or character.

Abe wanted the child but was neutral in regard to human sacrifice. His GOD however (as you say) was anti human sacrifice and wanted Abd to learn this - because obviously Abe being neutral on the practice meant that he did not support his GODs position, which was anti.

Abe gets told by the anti human sacrifice GOD that he must sacrifice his son.
Abe goes along with the command, not because he wants his son sacrificed to any GOD nor because he wants to do it himself, but only because his GOD commanded it of him and therefore he is obligated to go through with that because he has entered into a deal with the GOD, and obeying the GOD without question is part of that deal.

Since human sacrifice is acceptable in that time, Abe has no problem with the idea of a GOD wanting a human sacrifice, so that is not under scrutiny. Abe has a problem with having to sacrifice a son he loves at the command of a GOD he also loves, so the conundrum for Abe, is which love is the greater? Which love will win out? Will he save his son in order to show that he loves his son, or will he sacrifice his son whom he loves, in order to show that he loves his GOD?

Which will prove better in the long run? A love for a GOD or a love for a Son?

Obviously Abe made the choice that the love for his GOD trumped the love for his son.

Then as the deed was about to be completed, the GOD stays the hand of Abe through the messenger.

Then Abe learns that the GOD did not really want him to sacrifice a human at all as the GOD was actually anti-human sacrifice and the GOD just wanted Abe to know that about him so that Abe would no longer take the neutral position on the matter of human sacrifice in relation to his GOD.

Is that what you are saying?

[bluethread]

[Replying to post 216 by William]

Apart from the first line, "But if that were the case - in line with the story - Abraham would have therefore seen no problem with following the command of his GOD or thinking in any way it was out of order or character.", which is counter to the rest, that is the argument. As you noted Avraham may not have had a problem with the practice before this, but making it personal kind of changes things.

[William]

[Replying to post 217 by bluethread]

Apart from the first line, "But if that were the case - in line with the story - Abraham would have therefore seen no problem with following the command of his GOD or thinking in any way it was out of order or character.", which is counter to the rest, that is the argument. As you noted Avraham may not have had a problem with the practice before this, but making it personal kind of changes things.

Just to be clear, I see no difference between what I said in the green and what you said in the blue.

In order for clarity, it is important that if there is, as you say, a contradiction between the two, you need to show this else how am I to get on the same page?

[bluethread]

[Replying to post 217 by bluethread]

Apart from the first line, "But if that were the case - in line with the story - Abraham would have therefore seen no problem with following the command of his GOD or thinking in any way it was out of order or character.", which is counter to the rest, that is the argument. As you noted Avraham may not have had a problem with the practice before this, but making it personal kind of changes things.

Just to be clear, I see no difference between what I said in the green and what you said in the blue.

In order for clarity, it is important that if there is, as you say, a contradictionbetween the two, you need to show this else how am I to get on the same page?

Maybe I am reading something into it, but when you said, "thinking in any way it was out of order or character", I thought "it" referred to him performing a human sacrifice. As your understanding of the portrayal points out, he did have the impression that things were not quite in order and was faced with a personal moral dilemma. I wouldn't say that there were absolutely no misgivings on Avraham's part.

[William]

[Replying to post 219 by bluethread]

Maybe I am reading something into it, but when you said, "thinking in any way it was out of order or character", I thought "it" referred to him performing a human sacrifice.

I was going along with your analogy that human sacrifice was the norm and thus - while not something Abe practiced, in line with the GODs command, Abe would not have thought anything was untoward with the command, with in mind he at the time did not understand the GOD was anti human sacrifice - as you put it.

So what are the main points up to this part of the discussion? Can we list them and see if we are aligned so far?