The pre-incarnate Jesus, Michael.

[Elijah John]

JWs and perhaps some other groups teach that Jesus before his incarnation was Michael the Archangel.

If so, was there no Michael while Jesus was incarnate on earth?

And after Jesus ascension, when Jesus shed his incarnate body, (did he?) what happened?

Did he become Michael again?

Is it Michael who sits in Heaven at the right hand of the Father?

[JehovahsWitness]

If so, was there no Michael while Jesus was incarnate on earth?

The question makes no sense, we (Jehovah's Witnesses) believe "Michael" is just a different name for the same person.

To illustrate, we also believe Jesus was also called "The Word (The Logos) while in heaven before coming to the earth. Was there no "Logos" while Jesus was on the earth? Of course since Jesus *is* The Logos, then the answer was yes, there was "The Logos" while Jesus was on earth.

So was there no "Michael" while Jesus was on earth? Yes, there was a Michael, he was on earth going by his other name, Jesus/Emmanuel.


JW

[Aetixintro]

[Replying to post 1 by Elijah John]

IMO, I don't think the roles should be mixed. An archangel is not God's son! The Trinity seems well described in the Bible and if Archangel Michael is such a central part of the Bible, perhaps one would expect a different kind of Bible?

Archangel Sataniel is also a Satan slayer, but why can't we infer that there are 3 very powerful personalities in the Bible?

[JehovahsWitness]

And after Jesus ascension, when Jesus shed his incarnate body, (did he?) what happened?

We (Jehovah's Witnesses) believe Jesus/Emmanel/The Logos/Michael returned to heaven to continue his life as a mighty spirit at the right hand of his Father YHWH (Jehovah).

Did he become Michael again?

He was always "Michael" he just didn't go by that name when on earth. You see changing, or going by a different name, doesn't mean one actually transforms into a different person. Emmnuel didn't cease to exist when Jesus returned to heaven, since "Emmanuel" "Jesus" "Michael" "The Logos" (and who know if post-resurrected Jesus has been given another more glorious name) are all just different names to describe the same person.

To illustrate: My sister never liked her given name and so as a teenager chose to go by her second name. She however remained the same person. When she married she took on the Family name of her husband, she was still however the same person. In other words I didn't have one sister before the name change and another different sister after the name change.

In the same way, evidently, Jesus has a heavenly name (Michael) and an earthly one (Jesus). These are not two different persons its the same person with two names.

Is it Michael who sits in Heaven at the right hand of the Father?

Yes; since "Michael" is another name for Jesus or The Logos. They are not two different people.



JW

[onewithhim]

JWs and perhaps some other groups teach that Jesus before his incarnation was Michael the Archangel.

If so, was there no Michael while Jesus was incarnate on earth?

And after Jesus ascension, when Jesus shed his incarnate body, (did he?) what happened?

Did he become Michael again?

Is it Michael who sits in Heaven at the right hand of the Father?

Actually, that is what the Bible strongly indicates. (I wonder why it is so difficult for some to accept the idea of persons having more than one name. Peter was known by four names. )

I would agree that there was no Michael in heaven while Jesus was on the earth.

Jesus did indeed shed his physical body (remember, according to the Bible, he gave up his human life for all time when he died for our sins; he wouldn't take it back, would he?). Flesh cannot be in the spirit realm (heaven) as I Corinthians 15:50 points out. Further, there are two Scriptures that precisely state that Jesus was brought back to life as a spirit person. (I Corinthians 15:45; I Peter 3:18)

I Timothy 6:16 describes the environment in which Jesus lives now--"unapproachable light."

I believe that Jesus became Michael again, and he is the one described at Revelation 12:7-9. Who other than Jesus deserves the privilege of ousting Satan out of heaven? He has always been Jehovah's right-hand man, so to speak, and certainly enjoys the privileged position of defending his Father's name and following through on his Father's wishes and decisions.

[onewithhim]

[Replying to post 1 by Elijah John]

IMO, I don't think the roles should be mixed. An archangel is not God's son! The Trinity seems well described in the Bible and if Archangel Michael is such a central part of the Bible, perhaps one would expect a different kind of Bible?

Archangel Sataniel is also a Satan slayer, but why can't we infer that there are 3 very powerful personalities in the Bible?

There are no other archangels than Michael/Jesus. He is the ONLY archangel. It is a fallacy to say that other archangels are named in the Bible. There are none except Michael. I don't know where "Sataniel" came from, but he is not named in the Bible.

The only other angel named is Gabriel. But he isn't an archangel.

The Trinity is not "well-described" in the Bible, and if anyone is interested to view the arguments concerning that, check out the other threads in this forum that address that subject. They are quite easy to find.

[Overcomer]

I don't see how the archangel Michael could ever be Jesus. Consider the following:

The Bible tells us that we are to worship God alone:

Exodus 20:4-5: "You shall not make for yourself an idol, or any likeness of what is in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the water under the earth. 5 “You shall not worship them or serve them . . . "

Matt. 4:10, " . . . You shall worship the Lord your God, and serve Him only."

Luke 4:8, " . . . You shall worship the Lord your God and serve Him only."

The Bible also states that we are NOT to worship angels:

Colossians 2:18, "Let no one keep defrauding you of your prize by delighting in self-abasement and the worship of the angels, taking his stand on visions he has seen, inflated without cause by his fleshly mind."

Revelation 22:8-9, "And I, John, am the one who heard and saw these things. And when I heard and saw, I fell down to worship at the feet of the angel who showed me these things. 9 And he said to me, “Do not do that; I am a fellow servant of yours and of your brethren the prophets and of those who heed the words of this book; worship God.

And the Bible tells us that people worshipped Jesus:

Matthew 2:11: "On coming to the house, they saw the child with his mother Mary, and they bowed down and worshiped him."

Matthew 14:33:"Then those who were in the boat worshiped him (Jesus), saying, “Truly you are the Son of God.�

Matthew 29:8-10:"So the women hurried away from the tomb, afraid yet filled with joy, and ran to tell his disciples. Suddenly Jesus met them. “Greetings,� he said. They came to him, clasped his feet and worshiped him. Then Jesus said to them, “Do not be afraid. Go and tell my brothers to go to Galilee; there they will see me.�

Hebrews 1:6:. . . when God brings his firstborn (Jesus) into the world, he says,“Let all God’s angels worship him.�

No one stopped the wise men from worshipping Jesus as a baby. Matthew doesn't record that it was wrong of them to do so. And Jesus himself never stopped anybody from worshipping him. If he hadn't been God Incarnate, he should have done that, because he knew of the orders against idolatry found repeatedly throughout the Old Testament and, most clearly, in the 10 Commandments.

Bottom line: It would be entirely wrong for anybody to worship Jesus if he were not God, but only an angel.

Also note that Jesus is, exclusively, God’s Son, while Michael, an angel, has an inferior name as we read here: 1:4, 5:

Hebrews 1:4,5:For to which of the angels did God ever say,

“You are my Son;
today I have become your Father�?

Or again,

“I will be his Father,
and he will be my Son�?

Also note that Jesus has the authority to rebuke Satan (Mark 8:33), but Michael cannot do so (Jude 9).

Therefore, we can conclude that Jesus is NOT Michael, the archangel.

[Elijah John]

So when Jesus/Michael was on earth, did he temporarily suspend his angelic duties?

And now that he, Jesus/Michael is in Heaven at God's right hand, does Michael have any role as an angel, as he did pre-incarnation? Such as casting Satan down and about?

[JehovahsWitness]

So when Jesus/Michael was on earth, did he temporarily suspend his angelic duties?

Michael Jesus is the Archangel, the Chief or head of Jehovah's Angelic army. Naturally when Jesus was on earth, for example a baby having his nappy changed by his mother, he was in no position to lead anyone much less the millions, perhaps billions of Angels in heaven. The bible says Jesus "emptied" himself to come to earth, meaning he left behind his power and position and became a mere human in order to fulfill his father's will. We know this also because on the night before he died, Jesus requested that he could return to his previous position with His Father (something he could not do if he never left it).

So yes, Jesus temporarily could no longer serve his Father either as an Archangel or in any other heavenly capacity while he was on earth. While a human child, an adult and much less for the three days when he was inactive, dead in the grave, his work in heaven was suspended for the duration.

JW

[JehovahsWitness]

And now that he, Jesus/Michael is in Heaven at God's right hand, does Michael have any role as an angel, as he did pre-incarnation? Such as casting Satan down and about?

Absolutely, Yes! Indeed, the bible indicates the resurrected Jesus has MORE authority than previously. He has been granted immortality, biblically meaning he is now indestructable; indeed Jesus is currently the most powerful being in all existence second only to Almighty God Himself.

MICHAEL (The resurrected Jesus) STAND up as king - I914


In his role as "Michael" the Archangel he has (as the Prophet Daniel Prophecied), "stood up" for his people as King (we believe since 1914). He has since we believe, lead his angelic army in a celestial conflict and expulsed Satan and the demons from heaven.

Michael (Jesus) FIGHTS (destruction of the wicked)


Being God's appointed judge Jesus/Michael/The Logos will sit in judgment of every human on earth, rewarding them with everlasting life if they are found favorable or eternal destruction if not. He will soon lead those same angelic forces in the ultimate war of Harmageddon and will eventually destroy the archenemy Satan the Devil vindicating Jehovah's name and souvereignty.

The resurrected Jesus (Michael) having destroyed all human governments, wicked people will then rule over the entire planet earth, heading this global government, for 1000 years.

Michael (The Resurrected Jesus) RULES!!



What position was Jesus given after his death and resurrection? [this post]
viewtopic.php?p=916886#p916886

What does the bible say as to Jesus authority?
viewtopic.php?p=1044239#p1044239

Who is MICHEL the archangel?
viewtopic.php?p=936513#p936513